Hello Diane. All is well. I have been moving forward on creating an electronic version and paraphrasing Rogers treatise. I've almost completed the preface of his treatise, however, the it still needs work. Also, I am close to publishing a section of  his treatise from part three that is particularly revealing relative to the workings of the Light in many of the founding Quakers. It seems, when I become too engrossed in discussion here on QuakerQuaker to the detriment of my work on Rogers treatise, the inward Light dims somewhat as a corrective. I find myself sometimes annoyed by this conviction brought down upon me by the Light. Creating an electronic version of the original text, paraphrasing it, and cross-referencing quotations, of his almost 600 page treatise is a labor I had not I had not bargained for when I purchased the facsimile. With that said, It means I must keep to the grindstone. The more I am in Rogers treatise and the more source documents I pursue because he draws from them, the more insight is drawn concerning the unique and revolutionary nature of the founding Quaker experience and the ramifications of Fox, Barclay, and other founding Quakers leading the Quaker Gathering back into that which (outward forms) they had been lead out of in the power and Presence of the Spirit itself within their conscience. I will have the section from the 3rd part of his treatise ready for publication on QualkerQuaker in a couple days. 

Diane. I was only recently made aware of "Experiement with Light." If I remember correctly James Schultz mentioned it in one of our discussions here on Quakerquaker. 

I did go to the website, however, I've not explored it sufficiently. Are you a member? 

I can understand your sense of not feeling Presence through their words. Reading and re-read Rogers' work anchored in Presence itself, my conscience is guided, not by Rogers' outward words, but in the glory of the self-concsious ego resting not in the outward ideas and feelings but in light that shines up between the words themselves and such meaning and understanding floods over and into the conscience in waves of recognition. There is such spiritual power in the struggle Rogers manifests! In the grace of Presence itself my sefl-conscious is further  empowered and self-sustaning through the witness of the early Quaker experience leading up to thee separation Rogers' documents. 

I concur Diane.  There is a prosecutorial spirit behind Rogers action against those who would impose their conscience on others nurtured by a the defensiveness of which you write. And yes, it is recognizable in Fox too. John Wilbur also manifests this defensiveness. Rogers was definitely the warrior for the cause. I find myself returning to the series of letters Rogers reprints in Part Four of his book starting on page 37. The first letter to George Fox is signed by Wilkinson and Story and the others after by Wilkinson. I appreciate the conciliatory nature of Wilkinson's spirit. Then, when I read Fox's responses, I am struck by accusatory and judgemental spirt Fox manifests. I wonder whether you would share your impression of Wilkinson through the letters Rogers published?

Um, with the tithing there was a political issue of solidarity involved. GF & his party wanted the whole group to maintain solid ranks against the practice of tithing -- and not have that unity broken by anyone giving in to avoid persecution...

But that is clearly a case of treating the organization's political stands as if these were more important than respect for God's power to lead each person rightly. The feeling had definitely become ~"If they don't feel led in the same direction as me, they must be listening to The Wrong Spirit.. "

This dubious mentality that had already become far too manifest in the matter of Naylor, the willingness to throw an inconvenient colleague to the wolves rather than risk the group's reputation.

Fox was clearly a man of great faith, but where the mission he hoped to perform for God seemed at risk, it seems as if it was hard for him to trust God's purposes to God... That's been a subtle and powerful test of faith for many of us, yes?

Diane. You are coming through fine on my end. Thank you for sharing your thoughts as you read. Would you mind explaining further what you mean by:

"I can’t help but wonder if the cause of grounding consciences in Presence might have been better served by using various ways of preaching that message with deeds and words."

It is so exciting to work through Rogers with someone who has read his work.

Diane! It is neat to read you have Roger's book. I agree it is not an easy read, however, I hope you will find your labors worth the effort. There are paragraphs in the book that I resorted to actually diagramming the sentences to wrap my mind around his meaning! I have pages of diagrammed sentences, however, it is helpful. Plus, disciplining yourself to read very slowly, so you can gather all the subtle meanings built into his compound complex sentences is helpful. However, the fundamental discipline is reading his work in the Light of Presence itself ... really really really deepening down and experiencing the Foundation in the very act of reading so that your conscious is filled with the Light itself and meaning and understanding comes through the inward Light. Herein Presence itself will bridge over the waters of decades and you will playfully travel along within the invisible space between the words where meaning floats freely along the rays of translucent Light. 

A random question. Have you noticed how 17th century use of Jealous and Jealousy have a different nuance than the way we use the same word today?

I also sense Truth bring defended. Isn't it amazing that they really didn't disagree so much on the issues. For example, they were in agreement against the paying of tithes. Where they disagreed was the George Fox contingent wished to impose their conscience against tithing universally through outward institutional rules and structures on the whole of the gathering even among those whose conscience did not go against tithing. Rogers himself says, "Hey George, my conscience is in agreement with yours when it comes to tithing, however, my conscience goes against seeking to use outward rules and institutional structures to impose my conscience on those in our gathering who are of a different conscience."

The Children of  Light had been brought out of that type of institutional and outwardly principled coercion and many of the founders of the Gathering we not going to return again to that which God had lead them out. 

George Fox and those who agree with him actually came to the point were they said that they were being lead by the spirit of God and that those in the Gathering whose conscience was different must conform to Fox's leading (codified by Barclay) or they were going against God. Just imagine what the complete dismay many of the founding Friends experience hearing these words. The issue wasn't so much that Fox and others wished to establish certain outward forms and institutional structures that some in the gathering fleely followed, it was that they would not tolerate other individuals and meetings that did not conform to their conscience. Fox and others were saying all will conform to his rules, prescriptions, and institutional structures, and those who do not will be banished from the gathering. 

It is clear this turn to outward forms as a even partial guide (under the centralized authority of Quarterly and Yearly Meetings) to all members of the gathering went against the experience of the inward Presence of Christ within each individual as the Guide of our conscience and the Anchor of our conscious. This nod toward outward forms represented not an innovation but a return to that which God had lead the Children of Light out of and Charles Leslie (an ardent contemporary critic of the Children of Light and George Fox specifically) writes in The Snake in the Grass (1697):

"It is comical (but Provoking) to see these men so gravely vouch the Practice of the Church throughout the Word, who own no Church in the World but themselves! And for them now to speak against the Pretense of Liberty, in others, as a breach of their unity; when they themselves set up the very same pretense, to break the unity of that Church whereof they were once members! But it is come justly home to them (I wish they may reflect upon it) that they who

Hello Again Diane,

Yes! My copy is from amazon. Note, it is a facsimile so it is a copy of the original text. I personally prefer reading from the original. I hope you order it. I would enjoy your impressions.

Early in part three of Christian Quaker Rogers makes clear the nature of the apprehensions many Children of Light had with those who would return to that which they had left behind ...

"That that People, who have been so great Contenders against that Spirit, which would have enforced Outward Forms, and Orders of Men, relating to Conscience, though under the Notion of Assemblies, calling themselves the Church of Christ, should now be more exercised to encourage their Brethren to follow the Orders, Traditions, Examples or Commandments of any relating to Matters of Conscience, and the Things of God ( though under the most plausible Pretences whatsoever ) than that never erring and infallible Guide, which hath been so often exalted amongst them, viz. Christ's Light in the Conscience."

William Rogers

The Christian - Quaker

Part 3, page 17

It is such a blessing and of great encouragement to read of these founding Children of Light and their complete faith in and adherence to the direct guidance of "Christ's Light in the Conscience" without respect to persons or outward forms, traditions, and institutions. Rogers repeatedly uses the phrase: "what God leads out of, he usually leads not into again" specifically in reference to the essential and fundamental experience the Children of Light of being lead out of the first covenant of outward law, practice, creeds, and ordinances into the second covenant through the power of Christ's Presence that writes the inward Law of the Spirit lighting our conscious and conscience.

As I read Rogers words, I feel the disbelief many of the founding Children of Light felt over those in their gathering who wished to turn back toward that spirit or impulse that embraces outward forms, traditions, and institutions. And not only that but those same people cultivated an impulse of imposition in that they demanded conformity to their forms and institutions and the bureaucracy that resulted and threatened excommunication for non-conformity. This impulse went against the impulse of long-suffering, for conscience sake of all in the gathering, in the Light of Christ that was a cornerstone of their life working in their conscience.

Peace in all things through the inward Light of Christ,

Keith

The rest of quotation from previous post:

When in the Ages and Generations past, the Apostasy first entered as a Flood, I am persuaded, that all who have known the Truth, and have had the Consideration and true Sense thereof upon their Spirits, do concluded, that the thereof sprang through an Inward Departure from the Anointing in themselves (Obedience whereunto according to the respective Measures of Grace given of God, and received by each Member, was a manifestation of that wherein the Unity of the Body stands) and as the Apostasy entered, no doubt but the Traditions and Rudiments of Men came to be exalted; against which the Apostle Paul cautioned the Colossians, saying, Col. 2.8. Beware lest there be any that spoil you through Traditions of Men, according to the Rudiments of the World, and not after Christ; but yet not withstanding, I Question, whether any have been greater Pretenders of Unity, than those who have been exalting the Traditions of Men; and shall leave it to the Judicious Reader to consider, whether a sufficient Evidence hereof appears not in divers Apostatized Churches professing Christianity, wherein is established by Outward means what is to be Believed, and what is to be practiced; and yet doubltless as remote from the Unity, wherein the Fellowship of the Saints in Light doth consist, as the East is from the West, and so in their Unity (being but Outward) have found no more acceptance with the Lord, that the Unworthy Eaters did, whilst they discerned not the Lords Body.

Many of Gods People yet in the Body are Witnesses that, one part of the Testimony which accompanied the Servants of the Lord in those latter Days was against Outward Forms, Traditions, Prescriptions, Decrees, Ordinances of Men, with relation to Matters Spiritual and Divine, and wherein the Consciences of Gods People might be concerned, as being those Rudiments of the World, and of which he hath determined to gather his People (for to the Children of Light they appeared more agreeable to the Nature, and Tenor of the First Covenant  than the Second) and not only so, but to establish his Church on the Rock Christ, that so, as they received him, they might walk in him, according to their respective Measures of Grace given them of God to profit withal, and which, as the Apostle declared, was sufficient for them.

Now, Inasmuch as the Testimony of Truth hath been, that what God leads out of, he rarely leads into again; I appeal to Gods Witness in all Consciences, whether Indispensable Establishment of Outward Orders, Prescriptions, and Decrees for the Members of the Church of Christ to walk by, and submit unto, at this Day, and wherein the Liberty of their Consciences may be invaded (of which my meaning is no other Liberty than what the Gospel allows) doth not seen to exalt that sort of Unity, wherein the Fellowship of the Saints in Light doth not consist, and so consequently  may become the means to draw the Minds of Gods People outward, and so cause them to look at Outward things (under the notions of Things established in the Church) more than to the Anointing in themselves; lest Gods Witness in every Conscience Judge. 

Hello Diane, 

I’m not sure whether you will receive this. It has been strong on my mind to share some the William Rogers words with you from his "Christian Quaker." It has been such a blessing to immerse in his words directly; not being dependent on the characterizations of others. 

Rogers envisioned the "The Christian Quaker" as a history and line in the sand witnessing to the vision and experience of the Children of Light during the 30 years leading up the writing of his book and the manifestation of those people who would return to the establishment of outward forms to rule those gathered in the Light. This pre-establishment vision which shed all outward forms, traditions, decrees, doctrines, theologies, etc., for the direct inward experience of the Presence and guidance of the Spirit of Christ. Rogers, as a direct witness to the life and experience of the Children of Light, marks this experience foundational and the essential Nature of the Gathering. Prior to the establishment impulse that invaded many amongst the Gathering the inward Presence of Christ was the only true Gospel Order.

I sense I will start sharing and witnessing to power and sufficiency of the inward Presence of Christ again, in a couple months, as I grow further in the knowledge of those Children of the Light who shared and witnessed to the Sufficiency itself. Presence is so strong when the mind is turned upon the invisible and silent words spoken from and through the Light within rather than on those that are seen with the eyes and heard with the ears!

Here is a quote from pages 82-85 of the "Christian Quaker." The italicized works are the authors.  The number of characters exceeds the 5000 characters limit per post. So I will finish the quote in a send post. 

I doubt not but there are many who are ready to conclude, That an Universal Unity ought to be established in the Churches, by the Assistance of outward Instruments; that as we are Members of one Body, so we may not only be one in Faith, one in Doctrine, but also one in Practice, with relation to Discipline, Order and Outward Forms of Government.

My soul should rejoice to see that Day, wherein we might all be so led by the appearance of Christ’s Spirit in us, under his Government, which ought to be exalted over all, as that this Oneness might thereby be witnessed amongst all the Families of Gods People at this Day. But since it is so with the Church of God at this day, as it was with the Church in the Primitive Days, viz. that there are diversities of Administrations, and diversities of Gifts and Operations in the Body, and through the same Spirit; it behooves every one diligently to watch, that we Judge not one another by reason of these differing exercises;  as if these things consisted not with the Unity of the Body.

And since also it is so, that amongst the primitive Believers there were such as practices Circumcision, some made Conscience of keeping a Day, and some that Abstained from eating flesh, and others that did not, and yet a Christian – Liberty and Forbearance was so exercised, as that they were not to be Judging one another about these things, and that we find not that these differing exercises in a Christian – Liberty, did subject any of those Believers exercised therein to the Censure of being out of the Unity of the Body; I therefore do reasonably conclude, that the infallible Mark, whereby any member of the Body is known to be in true Unity with the Body, doth not consist if Profession of Belief of certain Principles and Doctrines, and Practices depending thereon; nor in Obedience to the Measures of others; but in the Circumcision of the heart, and Answer of a good Conscience toward God, and that every Member keeps his own order, Office and Place in the Body, through his Obedience to the Measure and Gift of Grace in himself, which he hath receiv