Comment by Javaughn Fernanders on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 8:33pm

@Diane,
Definitely an "ouch" moment. I felt that way in an even more"Liberal" community where they would not say "God." It did not feel spiritual but intellectual. Which is why I left. I am sorry about what happened to you and based on many of these comments I will continue to ask God for the strength to stand up to such nonsense in meeting. I will also continue to listen for Divine leading and not to fall prey to my own thoughts.

Comment by Jim Wilson on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 8:55pm

This thread has been truly helpful to me. Micah's post in particular put the discussion into a perspective that I had not considered before but which I think is important to consider.

Thanks to everyone,

Jim

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 10:32pm

I am so sorry thee has had such experiences, Diane. That is terrible.

Comment by Tom Smith on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 10:59pm

I regret those "ouch" moments, but in my experience in Evangelical, Conservative, FUM(Liberal to Fundamentalist?), FGC(Liberal?), and Beanite(Liberal?) each of these for a significant period of time, most actually years, I have heard most any type of comment of the "other." Some specific extreme examples which are taken from actual comments and which I am fairly certain reflect more than just the speaker's point of view: 1) Anyone who does not name Jesus of Nazareth as their saviour is a heretic and should not be listened to by any Friend; 2) (Said by a Friends pastor in a Friends Church at the funeral of a 6 yr old to the child's mother) I regret that your child is in hell because he didn't have a chance to accept Jesus as his saviour;

I will stop there. These examples in no way excuse an anti-Christian attitude, but they certainly have given me pause over the years in listening to the wide range of expressions and attitudes among Friends. The one aspect that I have found rather consistent in all "branches" of Friends is that there are individuals who will not listen to language that does not fit their definitions of a Friend and try to "put down" others who use different language, and there are individuals who Listen.

Some Meetings/Churches are defined by a few members. Some are defined by explicit statements. Some are not defined. Etc. Etc. Etc. (Apologies to "The King and I")

How do I listen, both to the still small voice and to the voices of "others?"
How long do I try to be a part of a "community"/Meeting/Church in which I hear discord and see actions that do not match the words until I leave and "shake the dust from my sandals?"
How do I share the discomfort I feel when such "words or actions of discord" are witnessed?

Comment by Javaughn Fernanders on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 11:19pm

Friends, its so clear that there is a lot of "hurt" out there. I wonder what we can do besides using this blog as a clearinghouse for bad Quaker behavior (which I am not 100% opposed to, but wonder if it is really helpful). I hate saying that since I actually asked for comments. thankfully, Micha Bales has really helped me get past what was written on michiganquakers.org.

Of course answering my initial question does not heal these wounds and I wonder if we can come up with a way, in our meetings or individually, to make sure our speech and stated positions on Christ, atheism, universalism or whatever, do not wound each other.

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 11:27pm

As Linda suggested (I think it was Linda) I think we should make a point of visiting other Meetings outside of our own preference so that we are less likely to make generalized statements about other Friends' Meetings.

Comment by Javaughn Fernanders on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 11:34pm

Which actually means I need to check out those Michiganders! I think they are the closest to SOuth Bend, In. Does anyone know of Conservatives (meetings) on the West Coast?

Comment by Micah Bales on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 11:40pm

Javaughn,

I think that visiting Conservative Friends in your area is a great idea, and I hope that you don't stop with Crossroads Meeting. I really would encourage you to check out New City Friends. They are a Conservative, gay-friendly worship group in the city of Detroit. And they're pretty awesome, if I do say so myself.

Their website is: http://newcityfriends.wordpress.com/

Let me know what you discover!

Micah

PS: While I am aware of isolated Conservative Friends in California, there is no Conservative Friends group to my knowledge west of the Rockies.

Comment by Tom Smith on 7th mo. 6, 2010 at 2:47am

I have been wrestling with my last response and the initial question for several hours and I feel led to respond to that wrestling. I believe it is critical that we address differences in a direct manner, and trusting that a more open examination can be done in a spirit of truthfulness with a "corrective love" as the aim.

I personally do not know of any "Liberal" Meeting that has sought to "read out of Meeting" any individuals or Meetings due to their beliefs in the last few decades. I do know and clearly understand that individuals and even some Meetings may have been made to feel unwelcome and chosen to withdraw. However I do know of several incidents where Meetings have "read out of Meeting" or sought to officially disassociate some individuals or Meetings. Most of these have been over the homosexuality issue. I know of actions in Meetings in Northwest Yearly Meeting and Ohio Yearly Meeting, as well as in Friends United Meeting itself. There was an action brought before Indiana Yearly Meeting and a different action in Western Yearly Meeting. The Western YM action was, to over simplify!!!, regarding the belief in the universal access to God. Both the Indiana and Western YM actions did not proceed due to the Friends tradition of Sense of the Meeting not being achieved. However, it seems clear that if a vote had been taken the majority would have been for exclusion. (Some Friends Meetings/Churches have adopted voting as their mode of business)

It is not easy to be in a position to apparently criticize Friends, especially when some friends and relatives have been directly involved. However, I believe we need to be aware of some of the issues in the "larger framework" of Friends if we are to deal with the broader issues within the Society of Friends in an open manner. I am well aware of the many separations within Friends and have had family members involved in some of these past (and present?) concerns, and I would earnestly trust that we can communicate with each other in the spirit of Christ/Light/Love/Way/Truth/Life.

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 6, 2010 at 8:23am

I'm in Fayetteville, PA. I am surrounded by Harrisburg, Gettysburg, Chambersburg, and Frederick Monthly meetings. They are all liberal Friends. Anyone know any conservative friends near to 17222?

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