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Permalink Reply by Keith Saylor on 3rd mo. 12, 2016 at 12:31pm

There is a powerful mention in the canonized scripture, that is purported to have been written by the apostle John,  that reads:

“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose, I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

(John 12:27-50 ESV)

This text, whether fictional or historic documentation, portray the man Jesus hiding from the folks around him and that "therefore they could not believe (ESV)" or:

"For this reason, they could not believe (NIV)"

"This is why they were unable to believe (HCSB)"

Jesus is said to have hidden from them and in this hiding, they were no longer able to believe. It is significant that, just before leaving them, he says; "Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” They had the embodiment of the light right in front of them. Because of the witness of the Light within me, I can feel how it would feel to be present before the Light in the person of Jesus. To hear him speak and to see him would have been to hear and see from my conscious and conscience ... my own being. The voice of God (inherent self-existence) would have reverberated from within me from my own conscious and conscience. His name would be inwardly glorified in intrapersonal and interpersonal recognition in the same moment .... I AM. I AM is glorified. For those who did not experience the light in the person of Jesus in their own conscience and conscious Jesus' testimony that he was to die soon, it would have been a contradiction of the outward Law itself because the outward written words established that Christ (the inherent self-existent Light itself) would live forever. If the person Jesus were really the Christ his body would not die. This is, according to a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by outward forms and the shadow that blankets over it. The death of the outward body of Jesus means losing of the Christ. However, it that very moment, those who walked in the Light itself, and knew not bondage to the outward Law, tradition, and institutions, of the time would experience the truth the death of the body was not the death of the King (Christ) but the fulfillment of the person of Jesus Christ and the establishment of the name of God without regard to outward persons (even the person of Jesus), laws, or institutions. 

Jesus is said to make it clear that it is the walking (the act a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by) in the Light itself that results in our establishment of sons of Light. The way of existence wherein the conscious is anchored in and the conscience is informed by outward forms is the experience of the hiding away of the Light itself so that they could not believe. They ask "Who is this son of Man?" He answers, the light (the son of Man) is among who ... walk in that Light and you will become sons light. He then hides and it the hiding they were not able to believe because they were not sons of Light and were dependent upon actually seeing him physically (idolizing him). They gloried in the outward things of men and their eyes were blinded and their hearts were not tender unto to Light itself. They feared the outward authorities and institutions and, even those who believed, did not have the strength to confess the Light itself as their guide upon the path.

To know the experience of the movement of the inshining Light itself in our daily lives as our only guide and teacher. That is, to literally walk in the glory of the light itself is to know experientially the relative increase and decrease  or stasis of the inshining Light itself as our guide in our lives on this earth and in eternity. 

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Permalink Reply by marc lambert on 3rd mo. 12, 2016 at 12:32pm

Remember that in Numbers we read that the Israelite force was 603,550 fighting men, meaning the whole horde was several million.  To allow such a large portion of the labor force to simply depart would make no economic sense. 

Moses first plead for the Israelites to have some days off to worship. A ruse?

Also, Pharaoh gave Joseph  and the Israelites the land of Goshen, where they prospered but apparently didn't mix at first with the Egyptians. 

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 12, 2016 at 1:22pm

Wow! Multiple conversations with extremely diverse emphases! I had to reread all of it to get some sense of how they relate!

Much depends on things David said:

This is a legend!

Something happened that was retold -- but the details of the story we receive have more to do with the people who retold it, and their circumstances, than with the literal events in Egypt that began the tradition. So we find: "These are your gods, who brought you out of Egypt" -- both in this story, and in the story of Jereboam, about the  images of YWYH he set up  at both ends of Israel, to keep his people from pilgrimages to Jerusalem.

& Much about the psychology of our connection with God -- which I will need to deal with later to address properly, sorry!

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Permalink Reply by James Cusick on 3rd mo. 12, 2016 at 1:51pm

Keith Saylor said:

Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

-------------

That is a brilliant connection which I never saw before.

It coincides with Pharaoh making his own heart hardened, so too people make their own eyes blind and make their own ears to not hear and make their own heart so it will not understand.

It always did puzzle me why the text said that God would make any person as "not see, not hear, not understand" but now I see - just like Pharaoh the people harden their self because of God - not truly done by God but because of God.

See here Matthew 13:15

This is an enlightenment of the scripture text for me.

Cheers.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 1:06am

This discussion seems to be heading toward a consensus I don't share: ~'God doesn't harden hearts; people harden [their own] hearts.'

That only works if 'God' and 'people' are separate, disjoint.

The Hebrew world view has it that 'the accidents of history' are not accidents, but acts of God in the most intentional sense. That God has intentions; and what people do and suffer and enjoy all works to realize those intentions. It isn't just a matter of getting a whole mass of Hebrews from point A to point B; the assumption is that there's a purpose to it all. (& if not, why assume any meaning to this book whatsoever?)

If God and Pharaoh concur that he mustn't let those rebellious Hebrews loose in the desert, Pharaoh for his reasons and God for His -- and Pharaoh's intransigence fits into God's intentions for those Hebrews -- then there's still a question of "Why?" -- which we may not be able to understand completely, but which can't be entirely senseless.

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Permalink Reply by David McKay on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 8:07am

Increasingly people are talking about a Christian doctrine of salvation called Christus Victor. In that approach God it does not will the death of Jesus on the cross. God wills that Jesus be faithful and in a world such as ours such faithfulness led to the cross — in other words, we killed Jesus because of our own mess and not because God required a blood sacrifice. It is through that faithfulness that we are "saved".
I think this conversation parallels that conversation.

My vision of God is not one where God is in control. You hear that vision annunciated a lot out there in Christian circles. I do think God offers/invites us into opportunities to be faithful in each situation that we find ourselves in.

If God's Spirit was calling Pharaoh to something larger than being Pharaoh — the living representation of the Egyptian pantheon and autocratic leader of a nation — and in response to that spirit of greater openness Pharaoh's resistance hardened his heart can we not saying not either/or but both/and? Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God hardened Pharaoh's heart. In the same way that my urging someone to take responsibility for situation sometimes results in them doing the exact opposite. Unlike myself however God is able to use that resistance to bring about holy purposes.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 10:37am

Well, in my life things frequently happen that seem like they must have been choreographed all along, through events that at the time were mistakes and mishaps. So 'God is in control' looks to be obvious (even though the steps of the dance get as ugly as our war against Vietnam, and I miss a lot of buses (and barely catch a lot of them) along the way. Is 'coincidence' God's favorite literary device?)

So one major issue is, "What kind of 'control'?" Like an ancient despot? Like someone operating a machine? Like an author with stubborn characters? Like the dreamer in a dream? (or like children used to organize their own games of make-believe? "Do I have to be The Bad Guy?" -- "Take that, Bad Guy!")

But yes, 'Why did God let Jesus die' is a question very similar to 'Why did Israel do time as slaves?' And like, 'Why have these times become so seemingly terminal and hopeless?'

There is also the question, "How do you get thousands of Hebrews to leave Civilization and take off into the desert on their way to a place they've never heard of?"

Wouldn't that take a real puppet-master? Or do all the necessary causes get organized, as 'naturally' as someone coordinates their muscles to reach out and pick something up?

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Permalink Reply by Keith Saylor on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 3:49pm

Who has believed what he has heard from us?And to

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(Isaiah 53:1-3 ESV)

For a brief moment I deserted you,
but with great compassion I will gather you.
In overflowing anger for a moment
I hid my face from you,
but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,”
says the LORD, your Redeemer.

“This is like the days of Noah to me:
as I swore that the waters of Noah
should no more go over the earth,
so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you,
and will not rebuke you.
For the mountains may depart
and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,”
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

(Isaiah 54:7-10 ESV)

The arm of God (inherent self-existence) is the inshining Light. When our conscious is anchored in and our conscience is informed by inshining Light itself in itself so that the literal and actual experience of the relative illumination of the Light (increase, decrease, or stasis) is the occasion of action, then turning from the occasion of the Light and back into a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by outward forms as the occasion of action we experience at once and, in the same moment, the turning of our gaze from the Light and the gaze of the Light itself turning from our conscience. The living dynamic is revealed in the to texts quoted from Isaiah. As Jesus spoke; "I and the Father are one." So it is with us who know experientially the inshining Light as our meaning, purpose and identity. I and inherent self-existence are one ... I AM. 

Please attend to the quote from John in my earlier post. The person of Jesus and his audience in that very moment in history are standing at the intersection of the First and Second Covenant. The person of Jesus is both the embodiment of the First Covenant and the foreshadowing of the Second. The Light of the world was standing before them and they could or in some cases would not see it because they hold to the first Covenant with the Hebrews that, while it rejected the worship of outward idols of God, it was still founded upon identity, purpose, and meaning through the mediations of outward forms, commandments, practices,  temples worship, etc. The arm of the Lord was mediated through these forms. God (inherent self-existence) was mediated through these forms. The Hebrews were watching for the establishment of an outward King (Christ). That outward King was right there in front of them and he was saying his outward form was going to die away and be lifted up from outward form (earth) and, in the lifting up, he will draw all people to him; the foreshadowing of the Second Covenant through the promised second coming and the fulfillment of the outward forms and laws of the First Covenant. No longer is God (inherent self-existence) an outward being mediated through outward forms and institutions ... the way of existence under the First Covenant. God (inherent self-existence)  established in the act of the outward Christ's being lifted up and the second coming which has happened and is happening is the Second Covenant where the LIght itself in itself illuminating the conscious and conscience is the mediator in itself without regard to outward forms ... without regard to the First Covenant. 

It is written in the book of Hebrews:

"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

(Hebrews 8 ESV)

God (inherent self-existence) no longer carries on the one way narrative of the First Covenant based upon conformity to outward frameworks and instrumentalities. We are now of the Second Covenant wherein the throne of inshining Light itself (inherent self-existence) is our conscious and conscience and not the mediations outward forms.

James Cusick's sharing of Matthew 13 nests the narrative we are engaged in:

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

(Matthew 13:10-17 ESV)

As long as human being is in bondage to the First Covenant (An outwardly mediated God pulling the strings and dictating the terms of eternity) it cannot know the freedom of the Second. Under the New Covenant, the outward forms of heaven and earth have passed away and those who live in the inshining Light are taught directly and without mediation by the inshining Light itself on the throne of our conscious and conscience. 

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Permalink Reply by David McKay on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 6:14pm

Slaves know they are slaves.

Their masters are held captive by their notion that they are free, and that their freedom depends on enslaving another. In the logic of Exodus, only slaves can become free because only slaves can know they are not. The story of the wandering in the desert (Numbers) carries the next insight: we carry Egypt around in our heads. But meanwhile, Pharaoh and his armies have been left far behind trapped in the mud.

In the preaching of Jesus, the escaping Israelite pauses, turns, and offers a hand to Egyptian oppressor -- offering help pull him from the mud.

The answer to your "why" question depends on your frame of reference.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 13, 2016 at 11:40pm

Before they're even out of the book of Exodus, they're already grumbling about "Where's the nearest McDonalds?" Wouldn't they have been thinking about this before they left? It might have been easier to get Pharaoh to let them go than to get the Israelites to take off, even if the conditions they knew were pretty grim. All that stuff to the east was desert, wilderness for good reason.

Maybe making this move happen takes more than Pharaoh's permission?

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Permalink Reply by James Cusick on 3rd mo. 14, 2016 at 12:37pm

Forrest Curo said:

This discussion seems to be heading toward a consensus I don't share: ~'God doesn't harden hearts; people harden [their own] hearts.'

That only works if 'God' and 'people' are separate, disjoint.

If God and Pharaoh concur that he mustn't let those rebellious Hebrews loose in the desert, Pharaoh for his reasons and God for His -- and Pharaoh's intransigence fits into God's intentions for those Hebrews -- then there's still a question of "Why?" -- which we may not be able to understand completely, but which can't be entirely senseless.

-----------

God and people are separate and disjointed.

When we seek to find that of God in a person then it is usually very hard to find because the person(s) are in conflict with God, and usually the person(s) are in rebellion to God.

What we need to do is believe what the Bible says about God - that God asked Pharaoh to "let His people go" and so God was not telling lies, and God was upset about His people being abused so that means that God did not want that to happen.

It would be like asking why did the USA get itself involved into the 2nd World War - well we did not start it - Japan attacked and Germany declared war so the USA was only retaliating and self defense.

People blame Abe Lincoln for starting the Civil War - but it was the South that started that rebellion.

So too, God did not put His people into any form of slavery or abuse, and so the question is rightly to be answered as WHY (why) did God stop what was going on?

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 14, 2016 at 2:46pm

Let's see... agreement that God didn't want this People (or any People or persons) abused, and did 'stop what was going on'; we have some differences as to how God carried that out.

"Why?" is a most significant question; and again we agree that God seeks to eliminate slavery and any institution with similar features, for any and all peoples.

[The US government, by the way, did want into WW II, provoked Japan by harsh and hostile economic measures -- probably expected Japan to respond militarily & was only surprised by the degree of success the Japanese initially achieved. But that's all another can of worms; we don't need the extra protein.]

Major disagreement: to what extent does God participate in what happens in God's world? -- and by which of various available means? --

Also, to the extent that people are 'in conflict with God', is that conflict purely external? -- or does it follow that a person in conflict with God is also in conflict with himself?

To the degree that anyone recognizes God as (among other things) the very life and awareness of each person, it's just not possible for anyone to be 1) in conflict with God and 2) alive and aware and 3) not in conflict with themselves....

To the degree that you see God as omniscient and omnipresent, you must also see God as intimately entangled with all and everyone -- whether or not their surface thoughts and feelings are quite what God had in mind.

?

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