Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 4th mo. 18, 2012 at 3:35pm

Forest, sometimes I think you are right on and sometimes I'm not sure you said what I think you said that made me think you were right on.  Were you ever a Judge?

My meeting seems to be going through a period where some are afraid there is too much vocal ministry and others are afraid the spirit is being quenched.  I see this as a perpetual balancing act that the Holy Spirit can handle if we let Him but I hear that's not the "Quaker Way".  Thoughts?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 4th mo. 18, 2012 at 10:47pm

James C Schultz: My meeting seems to be going through a period where some are afraid there is too much vocal ministry and others are afraid the spirit is being quenched.  I see this as a perpetual balancing act that the Holy Spirit can handle if we let Him but I hear that's not the "Quaker Way".  Thoughts?

Being concerned with whether or not something fits into "the Quaker Way" sounds misdirected to me; the "Holy Spirit" is supposed to be our way!

But look: "Too much" or "too little" ministry can be a symptom of a Meeting's spiritual condition, ie ~Are these people too busy messaging to listen-- or conversely, so shut off that God has stopped trying to speak there?

Aside from that concern, the proper balance is... whatever the Spirit  finds appropriate to the gathering!

Here's what's really problematical: We're talking about a group of people who want to be able to specify and control what kind of "worship experience" they should be having!!! [What is this saying?]

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 4th mo. 18, 2012 at 11:04pm

That's the way I think it has to be looked at.  We shouldn't have a preconceived way of how the Spirit is going to use the time.  If those in attendance are hearing from God that should be fine.  But we don't seem to be able to be content with that.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 4th mo. 18, 2012 at 11:28pm

If those in attendance are hearing from God that should be fine.

I used to think about my Meeting that way, and then I got to thinking: "These are really nice people, but do they sound like people who've been sitting in God's classroom for the last several decades? Were they staring out the windows and thinking about what they'd be doing after school?"

If you asked them, "Would you say that you've been 'hearing from God' this last hour?"-- What would they say?

I don't think we're supposed to impose a uniformity of expectations or interpretations of what we're doing or what happens during what we call "worship"-- but if people are neither expecting nor intending to 'hear from' God, are neither hoping nor prepared for anything so potentially drastic, wouldn't God be rude to intrude, except in utter urgency?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Olivia on 4th mo. 28, 2012 at 8:30am

Forrest, you said "but if people are neither expecting nor intending to 'hear from' God, are neither hoping nor prepared for anything so potentially drastic, wouldn't God be rude to intrude, except in utter urgency?"

YES!  That has been my experience of the thing -- God is very unassuming and won't speak up at all when I'm not really asking for that.      The thing that was very upsetting for me to discover as a Quaker though was that as soon as I sat in the silence for long enough in centering prayer (every thought that comes up you just basically throw into the river and let it float away, or you say "Christ" or a similar key word until you have no more thoughts happening)....just did that for long enough and God started speaking!     This was very upsetting to me initially.     I am not surprised that people prefer not to find this out.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 4th mo. 28, 2012 at 7:19pm

Olivia said: "..."That has been my experience of the thing -- God is very unassuming and won't speak up at all when I'm not really asking for that.

"... as soon as I sat in the silence for long enough in centering prayer... just did that for long enough and God started speaking!     This was very upsetting to me initially.     I am not surprised that people prefer not to find this out."

Wow! I am surprized! Because back when I was starting to find out This Stuff was real-- That was the only thing that had given me any good reason for hope since I'd learned to read!

We have wars. We have endemic degenerative diseases, toxic pollutants in our food, racism and classism-- a kleptocracy in charge of our government, livelihoods, information, education, and health care... Myriad interlocking threats to the survival of species and planet... but that's all stuff we're used to.

I'm not saying that 'hearing' from God shouldn't be upsetting-- If it's so, then that's how it should be-- but it certainly is very odd of us! It isn't like we'd found anything better to put our faith in.

"Taught by hard experience not

to put our faith in hope..."

Could that be it? Being too locked into the horrors we know? Then being faced by a Power that could overcome them all-- but for some reason hasn't? But most of all, hope suddenly circulating through parts of our psyche that had been frozen dead with hopelessness? Or perhaps realizing, that we might need to look at this world differently?

Of course, most of the religion I'd heard about, back then, had been pretty narrow. I couldn't quite fit it in, couldn't quite throw it out-- a long scary and puzzling time before I could ask God directly: "You wouldn't do that to anyone, would You?" Because what I knew God had done to people was scary enough, for one thing.

---

All this is starting to make some kind of sense to me lately-- but not so I'm ready to try writing about it yet. Something about why young children start saying "No!", why adolescents have to go off and be Bad for awhile... Having to become different before we can unify. Makes sense?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Olivia on 4th mo. 28, 2012 at 10:14pm

Hmm...(okay fine...I guess I'll risk the unnerving to share a little of this in public.  not much! but some)

I plead these:    "Being too locked into the horrors we know? Then being faced by a Power that could overcome them all-- but for some reason hasn't? But most of all, hope suddenly circulating through parts of our psyche that had been frozen dead with hopelessness?"

The very first thing I ever heard in the silence was short, simple, absolutely grace-filled, and NOT-COMING-FROM-ME.   And yes, I found this disturbing.

My initial reaction included this:

I know what my own voice feels like in my head -- I've been hearing that for years as my own thoughts -- and this was not my voice. not my thought, but something responding TO me.  If there was one defining characteristic of it, it would be that it was 100% clear that this was not coming from me. 

I didn't know Quaker communities at that time (found one shortly after) and I admit that I thought getting a response from God was a sign of being crazy.   I mean, I knew that it felt 100% authentic to me and not-crazy but I knew that it was going to set me up to have to battle with the "crazy" perception within myself and from others if I ever shared this weird grace.  Not that the world is that outward about expressing this in these kind of situations, but when shy people who want only to fit in have such experiences they just know that this reaks of "freakishness."

To use your concepts, I would put it this way:  I was prepared for method and felt that the world around me was prepared for method.  But grace without method and REALLY OBVIOUS GRACE ....that would be crazy.

Like I said, I found the Quakers not long after that and thought I was in a combination of heaven and a place where all the crazies like me went.  Everything I had just been going through in the silence they were dedicated to.  Of all the "crazy" things to do on a Sunday morning they got together in a group and sat just like that in the silence together.  What a nutty and divine thing!  I was in such awe....

at least until I realized many of them didn't like Christianity any more.   ha

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 4th mo. 29, 2012 at 12:28am

That's a big risk; I'm impressed!

It's been a very long development with me, starting from events and experiences I knew were not "coincidental" or accidental-- but which wouldn't have "proved" anything to anyone who hadn't had similar experiences. & meditating, & being sometimes 'inspired', & very gradually coming to realize, full time, that I wasn't just blundering, but being led.

I've been more tacitly aware than overtly 'hearing';  been working out implications-- Like a person watching leaves move & thinking "wind".

But it really seems to me that the world needs people willing to cop to this "craziness"-- just to prepare them to believe that Grace can come calling-- and will.

I'm not sure myself what "Christianity" is-- but Jesus was saying things that would blow most Christians' minds. (That is, if they believe the stuff that's been called "Christianity"!) So what should we call those?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Olivia on 4th mo. 29, 2012 at 9:36pm

I'm not sure myself what "Christianity" is-- but Jesus was saying things that would blow most Christians' minds. (That is, if they believe the stuff that's been called "Christianity"!) So what should we call those?

I say we should call those things Christianity!   They don't get to co-opt the whole faith to mean something WRONG and we just walk away.  I like to deepen the message so that people can still have some sense that maybe Christianity is meant to be all that.   In any genuine Christian faith, God/Jesus can't actually be smaller an idea than accounts for reality.   I say whomever makes God that small doesn't get the final say.

--

So...you say Own the crazy??    Do you think we should?        :-)

In a New Agey training  a few years ago (polarity therapy), we were taught that everyone has the capacity to get intuitive information and essentially be connected to the greater Knowing that is out there.  Depending on our constitution though, some will perceive that information as a tactile sensation, some as an extrasensory sight, some more like hearing, some even will suddenly have the impression of smell or taste that is actually extrasensory information.  woo-woo... but the point was, and is, that we all have ways of connecting with that Knowing, that it's not better to sense it one way than another,  it's not about other people...it's just important to find your own way to that Knowing and listen/feel/etc.  Seek it out for yourself. 

Maybe what upsets us and makes us associate these things with "crazy" in our society is that we have built into our collective psyche about this stuff the assumption that it's not available to everyone, so if it comes up in our society it's either somebody else's crazy or somebody else's gift but not something we can simply trust in for ourselves as evidence of the Beyond...  knowing that we all have that and that it exists and visits us in different ways.  I would say this suggests that society's take on this thing is bad theology.  In reality, this stuff doesn't exist without being available to everyone.  It's either grace or it isn't.  It's not my grace and not yours, or yours so there's less for me.  That's definitely the opposite of how grace works.

The world would have us think of whatever this energy is as:  making some people better than others, richer than others, wiser than others, more popular than others, more blessed, more intutive, and some poorer, crazier, etc

But I think instead this is something available to us all, something that wants to know us and commune with us individually, every one of us.  This is part of my confusion about what I'm to do with my own particular "knowing":   I don't feel that it has anything to do with me being special but if anything, it wants to support you knowing how special you are, and my life is more of a testament to "if she can find this connection (ol' aspergers olivia) then anyone can."  

And then...what do I do with my "knowing" because you have your own resources for your own connection...

I can end up feeling like this grace is so free and so abundant that this powerful, crazy-good stuff it's doing in my life is just extra....it isn't even really needed... it's like surplus grace that doesn't even belong in my life or yours.  Just good syrup on an otherwise perfectly nutritious waffle.  There is apparently nothing practical to do with this much extra grace. But you don't want to hear that from me.

And the chances are....you (collective you) probably don't want to hear that from yourself either.  So we're in this struggle...for some reason finding it too frightening to find out how much grace is out there.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 4th mo. 29, 2012 at 11:04pm

Yes, that's it! (I'm so glad I asked!)

I didn't want to talk too much about the various ways I've sometimes received-- but we need that basic Quakerish message: that we all can!

To share this, we need to own what 'the World' calls "craziness"-- and just live with the fact that some people are going to mistake us for actually crazy. People who 'd rather diagnose somebody else's interest than share it, for example.

What's been frustrating and confusing me a long time... is the fact that this was always supposed to be the Quakers' message. But "we" thought it made us look too weird.... [Did you know that the bulk of George Fox's 'Book of Miracles' got hidden, lost, destroyed via malign neglect except for the index?]

And now the 'New Agey' people we're supposed to look down on [!] are carrying our message. ("The masseuses and telemarketers are making it into the Kingdom before us?")

I think people need each other to tell each other things we've been too timid to know we knew. Later, when everybody knows, maybe we won't need to say much beyond "Wow!" Meanwhile, people need this. Me too!

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion