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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 7th mo. 12, 2014 at 10:11pm

Can you elaborate a bit? Perhaps I've spent too long among liberal Quakes, but I'm uncertain whether or not you're using demon as a metaphor or in the more traditional sense. 

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Permalink Reply by Olivia on 7th mo. 13, 2014 at 7:23am

Hi Stephanie,

Thanks for the question.  This is what has plagued me a bit in my own liberalness...this feeling that there's something to it that I'm not really sure fits well into my own philosophy!!

For me, beginning to sit in the silence and seek the light (a practice that led me toward the Quakers in short order) was an experience of a lot of difficult letting go and settling down, and then always some internal quiet and calm to be found by the end of it.   Eventually with this as a daily practice, it felt even more calming and centering and warming and all kinds of good peaceful things...though perhaps always a struggle at the beginning.   And then one day I was not settling down well and was preoccupied with my own fear about a particular topic.   Strangely, I found that instead of the settling down leading to calm and joy, as happened so often, that day it led me to sense something very specific and icky... sort of like a very old and cruel energy.  

This actually scared me off of meditating / centering prayer for a very long time.  It was like I had realized that the Light wasn't the only thing out there...  (or in there)   and I thought maybe best to avoid the whole thing rather than find darkness there.

I don't know... (shrug)  what would you do in that situation?

I didn't want to pray / meditate / center any more until I knew how to handle that darkness or keep that from happening again.   Does this make sense?    I thought kind of the way one would about a ouija board I guess:  like maybe there are good conversations to be had but there's a lot of scary stuff out there too -- I didn't know THAT's what we were doing here!

I have slowly learned an awful lot that helps me to feel reassured about how to resonate more with the Light instead of the darkness.  But this was eye opening for me:  both this discovery, and the discovery that communing with Light by whatever name can be very specific too. 

I think it would take more discussion to try to say anything firm about "traditional" use versus "metaphor".   I do think that Light and darkness are not only metaphors but a way of  understanding energy and that we can let it all flow and that that would be the most divine option, or not let it flow freely and instead be creating (unintentionally) some sort of darkness.

Does that help?

It's a tough topic and the truth seems to be complex enough to feel elusive.

I would be interested to hear more about your own experience of Light versus darkness / your own impressions or experience of that.

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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 7th mo. 13, 2014 at 11:51am

Disclaimer: I'm not completely comfortable writing about this in an open forum.

My experience among liberal Friends is that we embrace the Ocean of Light and Love but avoid thinking about the Ocean of Darkness and Death. 

First, I'd like to respond to your experience during meditation. 

It's not uncommon experience. Some people are frightened by the vastness that can be encountered during centering prayer. It's bigger than us, not controlled by us and therefore frightening. This is not evil and, if one sits with it, can yield greater trust and faith. 

Then there's the darkness that comes from our own internal darkness. The early Quakers, Fox in particular, spoke of having to confront your true self - all self delusion stripped away. From personal experience, it start as a sense of severe fear and panic. Again, not evil, but necessary for the next step in a deeper relationship with God. 

Then there is the Ocean of Darkness and Death. It does not want us to embrace Light and Love. That is definitely evil. 

I hope I'm quoting Fox correctly here: "Art thou in the darkness? Mind it not for  if thou dost, it may feed thee more. But stand still and act not and wait in patience, till Light arises out of darkness and leads thee."

Over the years I've witnessed this darkness this in myself and others. How many times has every one of us said "I don't know what came over me"?

I've met people who seem to have surrendered to that Ocean of Darkness and Death and feel justified in the pain and strife they spread. The most extreme was when I worked in Central America in the 1980s. Modern psychology can only go so far in explaining genocide.

Scott Peck gives a much more eloquent explanation of what I'm trying to say in his book People of the Lie.

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Permalink Reply by Olivia on 7th mo. 13, 2014 at 9:39pm

Rick,

Thank you for your insight from the Cherokee beliefs in which one goes to war with evil spirits.  I wish I could hear more from you on this.       I hope you will be okay and find whatever renews your spirit and your strength.  If you like -- another day -- please come back and tell us more!

Stephanie,

Thank you very much for these thoughts.   Yes, People of the Lie influenced me as well.  Peck defines evil as militant ignorance.   I suppose that works as a definition in many cases, though perhaps not all. But a very good and spiritually grounding read. And Fox's comments as well.  I've also found these truths to apply, in my own experience: the only good thing to do is get to know all that is within you and let it rise.  Though I am not a gnostic, a favorite passage of mine is a quote from the gnostic gospel of Thomas in which Jesus says "If you bring forth that which is within you, what you bring forth will save you.   If you do not bring forth that which is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you. "

I like the truth of this "Modern psychology can only go so far in explaining genocide."

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 14, 2014 at 4:46pm

Having spent several years in a Pentacostal Church I am familiar with Demons in the Traditional sense.  I found that the more one is concerned with them the more one will encounter them and it's not a peaceful situation.  GF's admonition  "Art thou in the darkness? Mind it not for  if thou dost, it may feed thee more. But stand still and act not and wait in patience, till Light arises out of darkness and leads thee." quoted about is good advice.  unfortunately if you are in an authentic "healing" ministry you might not be able to do that.  At one point I had to step back from serious spiritual warfare as it was detrimental to my mental stability.  People who are very spiritually sensitive can normally discern the presence of spirits but they can be to fragile to deal with them.  It is a very draining spiritual warfare and I am not sure but that a less direct personal approach can be more effective in all but the most violent situations.

How's that for starting a conversation?

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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 7th mo. 14, 2014 at 9:03pm

Good start, James, and braver than mine. 

The advice given to me was to be "all prayed up" before engaging.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 14, 2014 at 11:37pm

The whole concept of "demons" is so divisive that it's hard to have a rational discussion without someone either becoming adamant about some professed biblical position or simply dismissive with an elitist "this isn't the dark ages" attitude.  Meanwhile there are people with mental health issues loose who aren't being healed and have to be kept in a drugged state of mind because psychology doesn't recognize there's a spiritual world that exists outside the strictly physical world they choose to limit themselves to.   Certainly a "religious" society should be able to discuss the topic with an open mind in the hope that some of it's specially gifted members might find wisdom in the discourse that gives them some revelation that helps them in their calling.

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Permalink Reply by Olivia on 7th mo. 15, 2014 at 11:54am

Stephanie -- your comments were wonderfully authentic and wise and that's all they needed to be!  Brave?   Not sure who is....   I found a lot of value in you reflecting back that this is a sensitive topic hard for people to discuss freely.  That seems to lay a more solid foundation for wherever our discussion goes -- we are acknowledging why this topic never comes up, etc. 

Hi James,

Thanks for these very good conversation starters.  It is an honor to have your thoughts on the topic. I am not sure I'll respond to as many of them as I would like to (and that will probably be better ha) but will see where the thread seems to want to be picked up. 

How about "spiritual warfare"?   You make a good point that might be paraphrased this way (do you think so or am I wrong in this?):   the psyche that seeks to do "spiritual warfare" is perhaps inherently unstable. 

??

Certainly in the Quaker tradition as articulated by Fox that would seem to be a supported viewpoint -- he speaks of living in the Light that removes all cause of war. 

I have to admit though that I was not raised in a "spiritual warfare" tradition so I'm not likely understanding that concept fully.  This being fragile if you are the sort that senses spirits -- can you say more about that?  I mean:  do you think that applies just if one is engaging said spirits in "spiritual warfare," or regardless?

Some years ago in my job in a faith-based organization we received a letter in the mail of a sort that comes to churches from time to time... it was from someone who didn't know us but was warning our congregation / pastor of how in the darkness we all are and that we need Christ. 

It was filled with fire and brimstone, filled to the brim with apocalyptic specifics, and with many scriptural references, but all of them seeming to be of an ugly and angry God in judgment of everything... no evidence of God's Light and Love, nothing that felt like God's presence, just the darkness...  

As I opened this mail and recognized this is what it was I normally would just recycle it at that point but something drew me to start reading it.  I began to read and I got deep enough into it that I started shaking my head and said "this is EVIL"...

ah!  At that moment I had the strangest sensation that something leapt off the page and jumped at me.  (I realize that some people will dismiss me at this point.  ha)

This visceral sensation caused an immediate natural response of pitching the paper directly into the trash.  And I did it in the spirit of "Yikes! My bad! back to you God."    It had forced me to catch a glimpse of what my judgment did in that equation. 

I saw that I could have been spiritually safe opening that mail, recognizing it and trashing it, as I usually do.  But I saw that what I did was read it enough to decide to judge it as really being evil...and that's when something, well, lunged at me. 

I keep remembering that lesson.  It feels like the way to be clear of all that gunk and those messed up spiritual dynamics may be in just staying in that space of Light and forgiveness.  Not taking on the (even accidental) duty of judging the evil. 

Does this speak in any meaningful way to the "spiritual warfare" dynamics and potential problems with it?   Or do I misunderstand the concept?

Thank you all for this chance to explore this together.  I'm glad we're doing this.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 7th mo. 15, 2014 at 3:46pm

Being "spiritually fragile" is just another way of describing someone who is tender and loving by nature and wears their heart on their sleeve and has a gift of spiritual discernment.  Jesus warns us to be as wise as serpents and as innocent/harmless  as doves.  If you are dealing with real evil you can't expose your heart to it.  Proverbs tells us to watch over our hearts with all diligence for from it flows the springs of life.  Maybe that's why Jesus sent his disciples out in pairs since it's hard to find those qualities in any one person.  As for attributing emotional instability to those involved in spiritual warfare that is probably the type of generalized statement we want to avoid if we hope to understand it better.  I think those involved deeply in spiritual warfare got involved because it worked for them in at least one important instance and they believe they have been given a special gift in that area.  When they are wrong about being given a special gift in that area they very well might end up emotionally unstable.  Spiritual warfare involves sustained prayer and even fasting for extended periods of time which have a toll on ones mental and physical health even without taking into account the possibility of harm inflicted by spiritual entities which might or might not actually exist.

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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 7th mo. 15, 2014 at 9:46pm

Olivia said: How about "spiritual warfare"?   You make a good point that might be paraphrased this way (do you think so or am I wrong in this?):   the psyche that seeks to do "spiritual warfare" is perhaps inherently unstable. 

I agree with James. It's not instability. It's an awareness. 

Most will find this illogical, but one needs to be somewhat rational about this. It's easy to start seeing evil forces everywhere and become fearful. Fear is their power. That's why I was given the advice to be all prayed up. Understand that what ever gifts you use are given by a much stronger power.

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Permalink Reply by Olivia on 7th mo. 16, 2014 at 11:50am

Hello Stephanie and James,

I am holding gently the information you've shared with me....

James saying "Being "spiritually fragile" is just another way of describing someone who is tender and loving by nature and wears their heart on their sleeve and has a gift of spiritual discernment.  Jesus warns us to be as wise as serpents and as innocent/harmless  as doves.  If you are dealing with real evil you can't expose your heart to it. "

and "Spiritual warfare involves sustained prayer and even fasting for extended periods of time which have a toll on ones mental and physical health even without taking into account the possibility of harm inflicted by spiritual entities which might or might not actually exist."

Stephanie's:  "It's not instability. It's an awareness....Most will find this illogical, but one needs to be somewhat rational about this. It's easy to start seeing evil forces everywhere and become fearful. Fear is their power. That's why I was given the advice to be all prayed up. Understand that what ever gifts you use are given by a much stronger power."

I am currently in a space of both agreement and possible divergence from your viewpoints but am sitting with these feelings and seeing where I need to learn something.   Thank you both for correcting me in my over-generalization about spiritual warfare. 

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Permalink Reply by Olivia on 7th mo. 19, 2014 at 9:08pm

Hello again friends Stephanie, James, and others,

I seem to have gone off and written a longer follow up note than I care to share at once so I'm sharing the first thought of it here, more to come later...or we can just speak about this part if you would like to.  I value your experience, comments, thoughts, and insight.

Thank you for giving me such an ample chance to grapple with this topic.   Since we began this discussion I have been having heart-area health symptoms (for the 2nd time this year, but not for a couple of months and then they came back after we started this topic)... It felt very odd that shortly after starting this post -- and while James is telling me "you have to protect your heart" -- I was having a very strong resurgence of symptoms.  I am trying to learn all I can about this.  [incidentally, I have also worked with a GP and now a naturopath on the symptoms].

Here's some of where I come from about this topic of "casting out" demons:

I have been present occasionally to God doing something that feels like a divine energy suddenly zoooooping up the bad stuff, energetically, and replenishing it with good. I don't DO anything (who knows how to do that?)  and in fact I've had a lot of under-whelming experiences of trying to support others with healing energy too....and yet, I have these experiences in the mix:   my loved one once dreamed, while I was giving her a treatment, that I was "cleaning out her aquarium".   Once I hugged a person who has suffered abuse and sensed a small version of this "lifting off" occur.    Once  a woman told me that something shot down my arm into her and she felt better afterward.  ??

My clearness committee process included 3 actual meetings with the committee and lots of time in between (maybe over a total of 8 months or a year).  I kept hoping they would decide I was crazy so I wouldn't have to take this leading seriously.  They didn't decide that, and they finally kicked me out / graduated me to do "some kind of healing work".  I haven't done anything with it since then. 

In between meeting dates of the clearness committee, once in my day job (in a church), two women I'd never seen before, well-dressed and professional looking, came to the door and (I kid you not) asked for some Holy Water, saying that they had demons in their office and they wanted Holy Water so they could do whatever with it to clear out the demons... 

I had to laugh to myself.  In my personal belief system about other people ( a very liberal perspective), I tend to think that if someone comes up thinking there are demons where they work, it's probably because there are gay people there or something...and that these people are misguided to think gay people are perverse or affected by demons...  But I felt God was saying to me in real time "no, it's okay.  It's true. They do have demons there."

[One very relevant side note:  At no point do I believe "demons" are sentient beings -- more like expired energy that used to be divine but has gotten too old and funky and causes all kinds of trouble.  Something that God keeps showing me should simply be blown off or ignored, and not interacted with... well except for one very informative dream I had about how to deal with them.] 

I told these two women at the door that we were not a Catholic church and sounded like they were looking for water that had been officially blessed in that way... I pointed them toward a local Catholic church.  They kept wanting to talk, instead of leaving.  So I told them about a dream I had had once...just in case it was helpful to them to consider as they try to figure out what to do with these "demons".  

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