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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 12, 2016 at 9:16pm

People who want to do awful things do awful things. Sometimes they'll attribute that to their religion, even though many people belong to their religion without any such inclination, and simply ignore whatever precepts & interpretations might have been used that way.

People who think they should talk in favor of awful things will do so; but seldom find it convenient to do any.

People who feel fear and/or hatred of other people's religious notions will try to share their fears and find someone else to commiserate with about how awful it all is.

Humans, humans.

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Permalink Reply by Howard Brod on 6th mo. 12, 2016 at 10:47pm

Just by dwelling in the same place that Jesus did: Love; we ARE united.  Our power will be found in helping others who are willing, to that same place.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Wilcox on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 12:00am

Thanks Forrest for sharing your perspective.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

Having lived in the Middle East (in Palestine/Israel) where Muslims attacked only about a mile away from us and shot down civilians living in an apartment complex, and having talked with many Muslims since, it would appear that orthodox Muslims do base their killing in the Quran.

This also appears to be shown by Muslim governments such as Pakistan, etc. who oppress and harm and kill others based in the Quran. Check the news this last few months about Muslim leaders in the U.S., Pakistan, Palestine, etc. again defending such horrific actions.

But I do agree that humans who do horrific actions to others aren't limited to Islam. 

The early Quakers experienced such actions from other Christians.

We humans always face two roads that diverge, but too often take the wrong one.

Forrest Curo said:

People who want to do awful things do awful things. Sometimes they'll attribute that to their religion, even though many people belong to their religion without any such inclination, and simply ignore whatever precepts & interpretations might have been used that way.

People who think they should talk in favor of awful things will do so; but seldom find it convenient to do any.

People who feel fear and/or hatred of other people's religious notions will try to share their fears and find someone else to commiserate with about how awful it all is.

Humans, humans.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Wilcox on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 12:02am

Thanks, Howard, for sharing a very positive response to the tragic events of today.

Howard Brod said:

Just by dwelling in the same place that Jesus did: Love; we ARE united.  Our power will be found in helping others who are willing, to that same place.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 12:57am

You have the right to dwell on the features of a religion that people use to justify cruel and violent acts.

But when you dwell on these, it's fairly difficult to explain why most followers of that religion probably don't practice it that way -- or why a government (church, etc) will probably find some of those features convenient; but will probably ignore any features that would preclude whatever course they intend to follow.

You don't, for example, find typical Jewish teachers or congregations in favor of stoning contemporary people caught in homosexual activities -- nor in adulterous ones, for that matter. You find a few ostensibly 'Christian' preachers who toss around notions of God punishing a nation for not doing awful things to anyone behaving so -- who meet such universal ridicule that they then let the whole subject drop quietly from sight.

Secular custom and personal inclination trumps religious ideology when it comes to actual behavior , but people invariably cite whatever religious justifications they can find, cogent or not, logical or not, appropriate or not, for whatever they feel they should do.

People in marginalized communities -- or occupied nations -- quite commonly gravitate towards the most rigid, narrow, ethnocentric interpretations of their traditions available. You see this in the way hostility to immigrants and racial minorities peaks, historically, whenever the US real economy shrinks and the job market tightens; you can see it also in the temporary eclipse of Hillel's faction under the Roman occupation... and in the sheer tribal chaos that generally follows intense Western intervention in Middle Eastern countries.

Denunciations of such misbehavior provides handy justification for governments bent on violent policies in regions they want to dominate.

But for learning anything worthwhile about a religion -- or improving it -- or improving ourselves, for that matter -- they're sheer waste effort.

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Permalink Reply by Howard Brod on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 7:36am

I think that perhaps because Jewish populations were interspersed among Western nations for millenniums, they have undergone (with everyone else in those localities) an evolution spiritually.  Even though those Western nations may no longer be especially religious, those governments have pretty much adopted secularly the values espoused by Jesus as an advantageous way to live together.  So, even though the Old Testament has some horrific commands on how to treat "sinners" ("eye for an eye"), as with their Western neighbors Jews have wholesaled abandoned those practices for Jesus-centered precepts ("return love for evil", "Judge not, less ye be judged").  They may not view Jesus as many Christians do, but they obviously admire his value-system (as do many non-religious people to varying degrees).

Since the Muslim world has long been more isolated, they have been more inclined to stick to their Holy book.  Perhaps as the world becomes more integrated, and through 'rubbing shoulders' we are all able to more fully center on the values first advocated by Jesus, the Muslim world will also find these precepts an advantageous way to live.

We need to "see what love can do", as William Penn advocated.  It will likely take quite a long time - maybe centuries.  But there really is no other way to be successful in changing the world.

The Spirit is an amazing thing: With just a little opening, it will persistently creep in.  We  can help that natural process by being agents of love.  And in reality, that's all we have to help the world really change.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 10:23am

It's been muy complicated... Jesus' positions on most issues of interpretation was essentially the same as Hillel's, which lost its leadership shortly before his appearance, in a big Torah discussion in which the less humane, enlightened faction brought spears & clubs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_and_Shammai

"The Pharisees" Jesus criticised were from that more zealot-style tradition, which lost influence after the destruction of the Temple, and the failure of God to favor a second revolt about 100 years afterwards. In Torah debate afterwards, Shammai's position is supposed to be stated first, then rejected in favor of Hillel's dissent -- close to Jesus' position, as you observe. 

When Islam first began to spread, it was a minority religion in the areas conquered by its adherents -- which were largely Christianized, merely not the same brand name as in Europe. Mohammed himself was probably heavily influenced by talking shop with Christians. So it sometimes became inconvenient to be Christian under such a regime, but Jews received much better treatment than in 'Christian' -dominated areas.

But whenever times got bad, Christians and Jews were likely to be scapegoated. They were frequently objects of violence when some Christian realm was trying to take over -- suspected, often rightly, of conspiring with such foreign enemies. When the Mongols came in, the first waves were from tribes led by Christian converts -- and went out of their way to massacre Moslems. Afterwards, tribes led by Moslem allies came in, equally bloody -- and more successful in massacring Christians.

As European nations became increasingly powerful and intrusive -- Christian locals were increasingly at risk from their Moslem neighbors.

Islam has not been isolated & then started to become 'more developed'; as Moslem nations have weakened it's become more defensive over the centuries -- and hence, more offensive in practice. To the extent that Moslems have been treated according to the values Jesus (also) supported, they've indeed found these more advantageous for diverse populations living together. But those are often the first values to go

when any maniac with a modern weapon can set off immense violence & counterviolence.

I can't say there's 'a solution.' I'm just saying that digging at the warts in other people's belief systems is likely to be unproductive, especially when dealing with people who are already feeling isolated and alienated by your own ethnic group...

We find the same kind of murderous rage in some of our own estranged youngsters, though most of us would just as soon not kill anyone at all.

So what are the roots of that?

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Wilcox on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 12:17pm

You wrote, 

"... it's fairly difficult to explain why most followers of that religion probably don't practice it that way..."

See Pew statistics and Islamic statistics. Most Palestinians justify killing Jewish civilians! They even support knife attacks such as the one that killed a 70 year old Jewish lady:-(

Sharia Law, according to Pew, is supported by 99% to 71% in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Blangladesh, Iraq, Palestine, Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Niger, Djibouti, DR Congo, Nigeria.

Over 60% in Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Mali.

If most Muslims supported tolerance, my wife and I wouldn't have had to write letters to Islamic governments for prisoners of conscience in the last 40 years (f0r Amnesty International and other human rights organizations).

Then you wrote: "You don't, for example, find typical Jewish teachers..."

That's true, because most, or at least many Jewish leaders don't take the Bible literally. Heck, the last Jewish leaders I spoke with didn't even believe in God!!

When I lived in Israel, all the Jewish people I met were strong atheists (though now Orthodox Judaism and Ultra Orthodox Judaism are making a huge comeback in the Settler movement which steals Palestinian land and attacks Palestinians, even defaces Christian buildings:-(

In contrast, most Muslims, even highly educated ones, still think the Quran is perfect, and that the Quran is eternal.

There are a very few liberal Muslims who are like liberal Jews and liberal Christians. A very good example is the Muslim Reform Movement. But they had to deny/reinterpret Muhammad's many murders and many passages in the Quran.

Islam was moving toward a reformation about a thousand years ago, but then the fundamentalistic side took over. Check out Islamic history books.

If American Muslims are tolerant, why do American ex-Muslims such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who wrote Infidel) have to go around with body guards!?

However, I do agree that religions have huge numbers. Probably there are Muslim leaders who are liberal, but most of us seldom hear about them in the news. And few of them are on the Internet. Most of the Internet and news is taken up by conservative orthodox Muslim leaders such as the ones in Egypt, etc.

Thanks for the dialog.

Forrest Curo said:

You have the right to dwell on the features of a religion that people use to justify cruel and violent acts.

But when you dwell on these, it's fairly difficult to explain why most followers of that religion probably don't practice it that way -- or why a government (church, etc) will probably find some of those features convenient; but will probably ignore any features that would preclude whatever course they intend to follow.

You don't, for example, find typical Jewish teachers or congregations in favor of stoning contemporary people caught in homosexual activities -- nor in adulterous ones, for that matter. You find a few ostensibly 'Christian' preachers who toss around notions of God punishing a nation for not doing awful things to anyone behaving so -- who meet such universal ridicule that they then let the whole subject drop quietly from sight.

Secular custom and personal inclination trumps religious ideology when it comes to actual behavior , but people invariably cite whatever religious justifications they can find, cogent or not, logical or not, appropriate or not, for whatever they feel they should do.

People in marginalized communities -- or occupied nations -- quite commonly gravitate towards the most rigid, narrow, ethnocentric interpretations of their traditions available. You see this in the way hostility to immigrants and racial minorities peaks, historically, whenever the US real economy shrinks and the job market tightens; you can see it also in the temporary eclipse of Hillel's faction under the Roman occupation... and in the sheer tribal chaos that generally follows intense Western intervention in Middle Eastern countries.

Denunciations of such misbehavior provides handy justification for governments bent on violent policies in regions they want to dominate.

But for learning anything worthwhile about a religion -- or improving it -- or improving ourselves, for that matter -- they're sheer waste effort.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 12:45pm

Most Catholic leaders, the last I heard, thought birth control was wicked. But what individual Catholics did had a lot more to do with the customs, and the secular practicalities of their local circumstances.

My first room-mate in college, a Missouri-synod Lutheran, was sure I was going to burn in Hell forever; and that this was simply how things were, my own damned fault. We've been friends a good long time since then; and I think he's relaxed his position over the years.

Most people, of any religion I could name, simply don't go around killing each other, unless an ongoing war makes doing so socially-acceptable, even praiseworthy.

There's a long-standing low-level war between Western & Islamic nations, yet most of us really only support killing civilians in a rather bloodless, theoretical sense: "It's too bad when a drone accidentally takes out a wedding party, but that's war." Actually, of course, it's utterly unacceptable, like the usually less successful  violence by Moslems -- but people defend the weirdest things when they start drawing boundaries around each other.  

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Wilcox on 6th mo. 13, 2016 at 11:52pm

Forrest, thanks for the discussion.

I'll avoid getting into Augustinian and Lutheran doctrines, of which I hate for many reasons, mostly because of their claims that God only loves a limited number of humans, and the rest of us were created for eternal damnation:-( 

I recently got that view again from a Missouri Synod Lutheran online, about how evil infants are:-(

Thank God, for George Fox, John Woolman, Levi Coffin, Thomas Kelly, etc.:-)

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