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Permalink Reply by Eric H-L on 9th mo. 20, 2011 at 5:34pm

He killed 450 humans. You know what I think.

And they seized them, and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and killed them there.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 20, 2011 at 7:01pm

Yeah. Killing prophets of other religions is unQuakerly! Worse, it is not good interfaith relations!

 

There's a religious war going on in this story; Elijah is the Lone Prophet here because Ahab has formed an alliance with another state via marrying Jezebel, and is trying to convert his nation to their religion. Jezebel has been knocking off prophets of YHWH, driving them into hiding for some time.

 

Baal's name means "Lord", just as everyone calls YHWY "Lord". So why couldn't they have just gotten along?-- set up housekeeping together in a nice little Temple of Baal-Yahweh? That was the common solution, in those days, for settling theopolitical disputes.

 

I think this story illustrates some of the difficulty. Elijah represents something "Real", that insists on being recognized... not for its sake, but for ours. Governments try to teach it The Proper Relation of Church and State-- but it intrinsically resists being put in its place. And this, as we'll see, is a big part of why Jezebel doesn't like the cult of YHWH.

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Permalink Reply by Eric H-L on 9th mo. 22, 2011 at 4:59pm

Forrest,

Thanks for the good explanation. I am glad you are doing this scripture study. I would rather learn the scripture and have problem with parts of it than not know it and think "I probably would have problems with parts of it."

Forrest Curo said:

Yeah. Killing prophets of other religions is unQuakerly! Worse, it is not good interfaith relations!

 

There's a religious war going on in this story; Elijah is the Lone Prophet here because Ahab has formed an alliance with another state via marrying Jezebel, and is trying to convert his nation to their religion. Jezebel has been knocking off prophets of YHWH, driving them into hiding for some time.

 

Baal's name means "Lord", just as everyone calls YHWY "Lord". So why couldn't they have just gotten along?-- set up housekeeping together in a nice little Temple of Baal-Yahweh? That was the common solution, in those days, for settling theopolitical disputes.

 

I think this story illustrates some of the difficulty. Elijah represents something "Real", that insists on being recognized... not for its sake, but for ours. Governments try to teach it The Proper Relation of Church and State-- but it intrinsically resists being put in its place. And this, as we'll see, is a big part of why Jezebel doesn't like the cult of YHWH.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 22, 2011 at 6:45pm

1 Kings 19. 1-.13

 

Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and how he had slain all the prophets [of Baal] with the sword.

Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, "So may the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by this time tomorrow."

Then he was afraid, and he arose and went for his life, and came to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.

But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree; and he asked that he might die, saying "It is enough, now, O Lord; take away my life, for I am no better than my fathers."

And he lay down and slept under a broom tree; and behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, "Arise and eat."

And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank, and lay down again.

And the angel  of the Lord came again a second time, and touched him, and said, "Arise and eat, else the journey will be too great for you."

And he arose, and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb the mountain of God.

And there he came to a cave, and lodged there; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts; for the people of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thy altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left. And they seek my life, to take it away."

And He said, "Go forth, and stand on the mountain before the Lord." And behold, the Lord passed by; and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and broke in pieces the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.

And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and stood at the entrance to the cave.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 26, 2011 at 11:27pm

1 Kings 19.13->

 

And behold, there came a voice to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts; for the people of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thy altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword. And I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."

And the Lord said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael to be King over Syria; and Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint to be King over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah you shall anoint to be prophet in your place.

"And him who escapes from the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay; and him who escapes from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.

"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

So he departed from there, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with 12 yoke of oxen before him; and he was with the 12th.

Elijah passed by him and cast his mantle upon him.

And he left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said, "Let me kiss my father and my mother; and then I will follow you."

And he said to him, "Go back again; for what have I done to you?"

And he returned from following him, and took the yoke of oxen, and slew them, and boiled their flesh with the yokes of the oxen, and gave it to the people; and they ate. Then he arose and went after Elijah, and ministered to him.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Smith on 9th mo. 27, 2011 at 9:31am

This is one of my favorite stories of the OT. You would think that after such a great demonstration of YHWH's power over that of Baal, that Elijah would be emboldened. Perhaps because he did not accept that demonstration as enough but took it upon himself to kill so many people or because he was more afraid of "political" power than even YHWH, he was afraid. One explanation that my scientific mind has considered is that Elijah played a "trick" on the Baal priests and people and when he used that trick to take revenge by killing others he became afraid that his "trick" might be discovered and thus he hid.

The "trick" might have been in using a not very well known form of "Greek fire" which was a concoction of oils, sulphur, phosphates, nitrates, or other chemicals such as sodium, which when they come in contact with water can burst into flames. There is some evidence that such a "fluid" was known by a very few in early Greek times and is mentioned in Greek mythology as well. Thus, if Elijah had had some of that mixture prepared in the jars and had added water and poured it on the altar, there would have been combustion.

In my mind (I know we are not supposed to use our minds to this extent), a story that fits with my experience but pushes me to go beyond where I am at, is much more meaningful than a story that is so far beyond my experience that it becomes "meaningless." Thus when human conniving and brutal revenge is used by a "man of God" to show the power of God it seems natural that the reaction might be fear of being found out and hunted down, as well as a feeling of "nobody else is with ME." Thus, when YHWH does speak NOT through the "earthquake, wind and FIRE" but in the "still small voice of calm" the question is "What are you doing here?" and Elijah's answer is "Nobody likes me and nobody is standing up for YHWH." However, the response is that there are others out there who do understand and do follow Yahweh, get out there and do your work in a human manner without tricks and gimmicks. 

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 27, 2011 at 11:57am

People are certainly not consistent creatures-- between what we "know" and what we realize.

 

From here, it looks to me too that killing the priests of Baal was more Elijah's idea than God's. No doubt "it seemed like the right thing to do at the time."  But as you say, it shows him putting his faith too much in the sword and too little in what God might have accomplished without it. Great and marvelous inspiration-- regardless of how he was led to perform that "wonder"-- but the man who receives and carries out that inspiration is still human-minded.

 

But also, notice that Elijah's "work" from here on out is to give his tasks over to other hands, and get out of the way.

 

And by the way, speaking of modern people and modern Quakers in particular, how long will we "go limping with two different opinions?"

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 29, 2011 at 11:25am

1 Kings 20

 

Ben-hadad the King of Syria gathered all his army together; thirty-two kings were with him, and horses and chariots; and he went up and besieged Samaria, and fought against it.

And he sent messengers into the city to Ahab King of Israel, and said to him, "Thus says Ben-hadad: 'Your silver and your gold are mine; your fairest wives and children also are mine.'"

And the King of Israel answered, "As you say, my lord, O king. I am yours, and all that I have."

The messengers came again, and said, "Thus says Ben-hadad, 'I sent to you, saying "Deliver to me your silver and gold, your wives and your children." Nevertheless I will send my servants to you tomorrow about this time, and they shall search your house and the houses of your servants, and lay hands on whatever pleases them, and take it away.'"

Then the King of Israel called all the elders of the land, and said, "Mark now, and see how this man is seeking trouble. For he sent to me for my wives and my children; and I did not refuse him."

And all the elders and all the people said to him, "Do not heed or consent."

So he said to the messengers of Ben-hadad, "Tell my lord the King, 'All that you first demanded of your slave I will do; but this thing I cannot do.'"

And the messengers departed and brought him word again. Ben-hadad sent to him and said, "The gods do so to me, and more also, if the dust of Samaria shall suffice for handfuls for all the people who follow me."

And the King of Israel answered him, "Tell him, 'Let not him that girds on his armor boast himself as him that puts it off.'"

When Ben-hadad was drinking with the kings in their booths, he heard this message, and said to his men, "Take your positions." And they took their positions against the city.

And behold, a prophet came near to Ahab King of Israel, and said, "This says the Lord, Have you seen all this great multitude? Behold, I will give it into your hand this day; and you shall know that I am the Lord."

And Ahab said, "By whom?"

He said, "Thus says the Lord, By the servants of the governors of the districts."

Then he asked, "Who shall begin the battle?"

He answered, "You."

Then he mustered the servants of the governors of the districts, and they were two hundred and thirty-two; and after them he mustered all the people of Israel, seven thousand. And they went out at noon, while Ben-hadad was drinking himself drunk in the booths, with his thirty-two kings.

The servants of the governors of the districts went out first. And Ben-hadad sent out scouts, who reported to him, "Men are coming out from Samaria."

He said, "If they have come out for peace, take them alive; or if they have come out for war, take them alive."

So these went out of the city, the servants of the governors of the districts, and the army which followed them. And each killed his man; the Syrians fled and Israel pursued them, but Ben-hadad escaped on a horse with horsemen. And the King of Israel went out, and captured the horses and the chariots, and killed the Syrians with a great slaughter.

Then the prophet came near to the King of Israel, and said to him, "Come, strengthen yourself, and consider well what you have to do; for in the spring the King of Syria will come up against you."

And the servants of the King of Syria said to him, "Their gods are gods of the hills, and so they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they.

"And do this, remove the kings, each from his post; and put commanders in their places; and muster an army like the army that you have lost, horse for horse and chariot for chariot; then we will fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they." And he hearkened to their voice, and did so.

In the spring Ben-hadad mustered the Syrians, and went up to Aphek, to fight against Israel.

And the people of Israel were mustered, and were provisioned, and went against them; the people of Israel encamped before them like two little flocks of goats, but the Syrians filled the country.

And a man of God came near and said to the King of Israel, "Thus says the Lord, 'Because the Syrians have said, "The Lord is a god of the hills but he is not a god of the valleys," therefore I will give all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall know that I am the Lord.'"

And they encamped before each other another seven days. Then on the seventh day the battle was joined; and the people of Israel smote of the Syrians a hundred thousand foot soldiers in one day. And the rest fled into the city of Aphek; and the wall fell upon twenty-seven thousand men that were left.

Ben-hadad also fled, and entered an inner chamber in the city. And his servants said to him, "Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings; let us put sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the King of Israel; perhaps he will spare your life." So they girded sackcloth on their loins, and put ropes on their heads, and went to the King of Israel and said, "Your slave Ben-hadad says, 'Pray let me live!'"

And he said, "Does he still live? He is my brother." Now the men were watching for an omen; and they quickly took it up from him, and said, "Yes, your brother Ben-hadad." Then he said, "Go and bring him."

Then Ben-hadad came forth to him; and he caused him to come up into the chariot. And Ben-hadad said to him, "The cities which my father took from your father I will restore; and you may establish bazaars for yourself in Damascus, as my father did in Samaria." [!]

And Ahab said, "I will let you go on those terms." So he made a covenant with him and let him go.

And a certain man of the prophets said to his fellow, at the command of the Lord, "Strike me, I pray!"

But the man refused to strike him.

Then he said to him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, behold; as soon as you have gone from me, a lion shall kill you!"

And as soon as he had departed from him, a lion met him and killed him.

Then he found another man, and said, "Strike me, I pray!"

And the man struck him, smiting and wounding him.

So the prophet departed, and waited for the King by the way, disguising himself with a bandage over his eyes. And as the King passed, he cried to the King, and said, "Your servant went out into the midst of the battle; and behold, a soldier turned and brought a man to me, and said, 'Keep this man; if by any means he be missing, your life shall be for his life, or else you shall pay a talent of silver!' And as your servant was busy here and there, he was gone!"

The King of Israel said to him, "So shall your judgement be; you yourself have decided it!"

Then he made haste to take the bandage away from his eyes; and the King of Israel recognized him as one of the prophets. And he said to him, "Thus says the Lord, 'Because you have let go out of your hand the man whom I had devoted to destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people!'"

And the King of Israel went to his house resentful and sullen, and came to Samaria.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 10th mo. 7, 2011 at 12:26am

1 Kings 21

 

Now Naboth the Jezreelite had a vineyard in Jezreel, beside the palace of Ahab King of Samaria.

And after this Ahab said to Naboth, "Give me your vineyard, that I may have it for a vegetable garden, because it is near my house; and I will give you a better vineyard for it; or if it seems good to you, I will give you its value in money."

But Naboth said to Ahab, "The Lord forbid that I should give you the inheritance of my fathers."

And Ahab went into his house vexed and sullen because of what Naboth the Jezreelite had said to him... And he lay down on his bed and turned away his face, and would eat no food.

But Jezebel his wife came and said to him, "Why is your spirit so vexed that you eat no food?"

And he said to her, "Because I spoke to Naboth the Jezreelite, and said to him, 'Give me your vineyard for money, if it please you, or else I will give you another vineyard for it,' and he answered, 'I will not give you my vineyard!'"

And Jezebel his wife said to him, "Do you now govern Israel? Arise, and eat bread, and let your heart be cheerful; I will give you the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite."

So she wrote letters in Ahab's name and sealed them with his seal; and she sent the letters to the elders and the nobles who dwelt with Naboth in his city. And she wrote in the letters, "Proclaim a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people; and set two base fellows opposite him, and let them bring a charge against him, saying 'You have cursed God and the King.' Then take him out and stone him to death."

And the men of his city, the elders and nobles who dwelt in his city, did as Jezebel had sent word to them. As it written in the letters which she had sent to them, they proclaimed a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people. And the two base fellows came in and sat opposite him; and the base fellows brought a charge against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying "Naboth cursed God and the King." So they took him outside the city, and stoned him to death with stones. Then they sent to Jezebel, saying, "Naboth has been stoned; he is dead."

As soon as Jezebel heard that Naboath had been stoned and was dead, Jezebel said to Ahab, "Arise; take possession of the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, which he refused to give you for money; for Naboth is not alive, but dead."

And as soon as Ahab heard that Naboth was dead, Ahab arose to go down to the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, to take possession of it.

Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying "Arise, go down to meet Ahab King of Israel, who is in Samaria. Behold, he is in the vineyard of Naboth, where he has gone to take possession. And you shall say to him, 'Thus says the Lord, "Have you killed and taken possession?"' And you shall say to him, 'Thus says the Lord, "In the place where dogs licked up the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick your own blood."'"

Ahab said to Elijah, "Have you found me, O my enemy?"

He answered, "I have found you, because you have sold yourself to do evil in the sight of the Lord. Behold, I will bring evil upon you; I will utterly sweep you away, and will cut off from Ahab every male, bond or free in Israel; and I will make your house like the house of Jeoboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the anger to which you have provoked me, and because you have made Israel to sin. And of Jezebel the Lord also said, 'The dogs shall eat Jezebel within the bounds of Jezreel. Any one belonging to Ahab who dies in the city the dogs shall eat; and any one of his who dies in the country the birds of the air shall eat.'"

(There was none who sold himself to do what was evil in the sight of the Lord like Ahab, whom Jezebel his wife incited. He did very abominably in going after idols, as the Amorites had done, whom the Lord cast out before the people of Israel.)

And when Ahab heard these words, he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted and lay in sackcloth, and went about dejectedly.

And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, "Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days, but in his son's days I will bring the evil upon his house."

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 10th mo. 11, 2011 at 12:57am

1 Kings 221.-40

 

For three years Syria and Israel continued without war. But in the third year Jehoshaphat the King of Judah came down to the King of Israel.

And the King of Israel said to his servants, "Do you know that Ramoth-gilead belongs to us, and we keep quiet and do not take it out of the hand of the King of Syria?" And he said to Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to battle at Ramoth-gilead?"

And Jehoshaphat said to the King of Israel, "I am as you are; my people as your people, my horses as your horses."

And Jehoshaphat said to the King of Israel, "Inquire first for the word of the Lord."

Then the King of Israel gathered the prophets together, about 400 men, and said to them, "Shall I go to battle against Ramoth-gilead, or should I forbear?"

And they said, "Go up; for the Lord will give it into the hand of the King."

But Jehoshaphat said, "Is there not another prophet of whom we may inquire?"

And the King of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, 'There is yet one man by whom we may inquire of the Lord, Micaiah the son of Imlah; but I hate him, for he never prophecizes good concerning me, but evil."

And Jehoshaphat said, "Let not the King say so."

Then the King of Israel summoned an officer and said, "Bring quickly Micaiah the son of Imlah."

Now the King of Israel and the King of Judah were sitting on their thrones, arrayed in their robes, at the threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets were prophecizing before them.

And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made for himself horns of iron, and said, 'Thus says the Lord, 'With these you shall push the Syrians until they are destroyed." And all the prophets prophecized so, and said, "Go up to Ramoth-gilead and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the King."

And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, "Behold, the words of the prophets with one accord are favorable to the King; let your word be like the word of one of them, and speak favorably."

But Micaiah said, "As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I will speak."

And when he had come to the King, the King said to him, "Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we forbear?"

And he answered him, "Go up and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the King."

But the King said to him, "How many times shall I adjure you that you speak to me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?"

And he said, "I saw all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd; and the Lord said, 'These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.'"

And the King of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?"

And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: "I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of Heaven standing before him on His right hand and his left; and the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing; and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord. 'I will entice him.' And the Lord said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And He said, 'You are to entice him; and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.' Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came forward and struck Micaiah on the cheek, and said, "How did the Spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?"

And Micaiah said, "Behold, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide yourself."

And the King of Israel said, "Seize Micaiah, and take him back to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the King's son; and say, 'Thus says the King, "Put this fellow in prison, and feed him with scant fare of bread and water, until I come in peace."'"

And Micaiah said, "If you return in peace, the Lord has not spoken by me."

And he said, "Hear, all you peoples!" So the King of Israel and Jehoshaphat the King of Judah went up to Ramoth-gilead. And the King of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "I will disguise myself and go into battle; but you wear your robes." And the King of Israel disguised himself and went into battle.

Now the King of Syria had commanded the thirty-two captains of his chariots, "Fight with neither small nor great, but only with the King of Israel."

And when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, they said, "It is surely the King of Israel!" So they turned to fight against him, and Jehoshaphat cried out.

And when the captains of the chariots saw that it was not the King of Israel, they turned back from pursuing him.

But a certain man drew his bow for no particular reason, and struck the King of Israel between the scale armor and the breastplate; therefore he said to the driver of his chariot, "Turn about, and carry me out of the battle, for I am wounded."

And the battle grew hot that day, and the King was propped up in his chariot facing the Syrians, until at evening he died; and the blood of his wound flowed into the bottom of his chariot. And about sunset a cry went through the army, "Every man to his city; and every man to his country!"

So the King died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the King in Samaria.

And they washed the chariot by the pool of Samaria; and the dogs licked up the blood; and the harlots washed themselves in it, according to the word of the Lord which He had spoken.

Now ther rest of the acts of Ahab, and all that he did, and the ivory house which he built, and all the cities which he built; are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel? So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahziah his son reigned in his place.

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Permalink Reply by Eric H-L on 10th mo. 11, 2011 at 7:20pm

And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, "Behold, the words of the prophets with one accord are favorable to the King; let your word be like the word of one of them, and speak favorably."

But Micaiah said, "As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I will speak."

And when he had come to the King, the King said to him, "Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we forbear?"

And he answered him, "Go up and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the King."

But the King said to him, "How many times shall I adjure you that you speak to me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?"

And he said, "I saw all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd; and the Lord said, 'These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.'"

And the King of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?"

This part confused me. The messenger asks Micaiah to agree with the other prophets. Micaiah says no I have to prophesize truly. Then he agrees with the other prophets at first??

 

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 10th mo. 11, 2011 at 10:07pm

Does this mean God lies to people? Or that we don't always catch Divine Sarcasm at work? (It might help here if we knew what tone of voice Micaiah used...)

 

The passage can also be read as hinting... that there's an underlying sense of truth that goes deeper than what people actually say. Ahab knows his plans are precarious; he's hoping the prophets will tell him he'll be successful; but at some level he knows this is all fluff.

 

And YHWY... Ahab has tried to get rid of this politically obstructive deity; that didn't work; he's been forced to negotiate better relations, show public respect-- but his heart has never been in it. Favorable predictions from the prophets of YHWH?-- Ahab can hardly go to war without that kind of support; but does he trust it?

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