Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Beth Belch on 1st mo. 31, 2012 at 3:48pm

Though the home I was raised in used fear to gain compliance, we are trying very hard to cooperate with our kids. I suppose we're "AP", though it happened pretty naturally. If you try to see "that of God" in your children, how can you hit and threaten them, or think them "sinful"? I can't speak about historical Quaker parents, and not being part of a neeting, I'm not much help either. But I would love to see more discussion (and support...please) about our journies as parents here on QuakerQuaker.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lauren Smith on 2nd mo. 1, 2012 at 1:11am

Today I was shopping for a baby shower card for friends who are first-time parents, and I found a card that added a spot of humor to my day:

 

"The Patron Verse of Parenthood:

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51"

 

Thank you for the book suggestions, Alice. I looked for Flanagan's books online this afternoon... have your read any of her others? I didn't find this particular book on Amazon, which is unfortunate since we already have an account, but I did find it other places, which is good.

 

Beth, I'm on the same wavelength with this - it seems like a conflict to see "that of God" in your children, then hit or threaten them, I agree. But I guess it's just a sign that we are not always in this world but not of it - I suppose we are all influenced by our times to some extent. For this reason, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that even Quakers used beatings or threats to discipline their children.

 

It reminds me of the "Circle of Moral Consideration" that is sometimes discussed in ethics classes. The more groups that you bring into the circle, the broader the circle becomes, slowly bordering and eventually including even outlying groups. The early Quakers expanded their circle to include moral consideration for women and other races - this was progressive for their time. I think it is only natural that the circle has grown, and that now so many Quakers would be concerned with the moral consideration of groups such as children or animals, also. It seems the more you're able to grow your circle, the more sensitive you become to these issues. And we see that the moral consideration for children has improved significantly in the past 100 years, with things such as child labor laws, groups to intervene in child abuse situations, extending the length of childhood, and so on. I guess what surprises me most about this subject however, is that white people have never been black, and men have never been women, and humans have never been dogs - so to not give moral consideration to a creature that isn't like you seems possible, since when you don't identify with someone, you can feel a sense of removal from that creature's plight. But we have ALL been children at some point. So the fact that this has been addressed this late in the timeline of the struggle for human rights is a little surprising. But then, children do not have strong voices or direct influence in society or politics, so I suppose it does make sense.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Beth Belch on 2nd mo. 1, 2012 at 2:34am

http://www.amazon.com/Quaker-Parenting-Beliefs-Testimonies-Practice...   -  I also want to recommend this book, Paths to Quaker Parenting. My husband and I are working our way through. It doesn't offer the nice "do this, not that" of a lot of mainstream Christian parenting books, but it's exactly what we were looking for.

            I agree completely! Trying to remember what it was like to be a child informs a lot of my parenting. But I know many people, raised the same way I was, who take a "I turned out just fine" view of things. I was actively taught that my parents spanked me because they loved me, and that parents who don't spank were neglecting their kids!! I guess a lot depends on how deeply you internalize that sort of message. If you love your children, you will do what you believe is good for them, and often what is reinforced in your culture.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lauren Smith on 2nd mo. 1, 2012 at 3:19am

 I was actively taught that my parents spanked me because they loved me, and that parents who don't spank were neglecting their kids!!

 

I was taught this too, but let me tell you, I never felt loved in those moments, nor afterwards when recalling them. I felt oppressed and angry. Even today, those punishments are humiliating and frustrating to relive in my memories, when I think back on them.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lauren Smith on 2nd mo. 1, 2012 at 3:25am

Oh, Paths to Quaker Parenting is now on the wishlist, btw. :) Is it more of an exploratory guide?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lisa Rand on 2nd mo. 9, 2012 at 9:18pm

My daughter is 8 now, and I remember in my pregnancy hungering for writings of early Friends that would touch on parenting (or of any Friends, for that matter). The only info this search turned up was the importance of a supportive partner if you want to parent and have a ministry outside the home—and I did not need a book to tell me that.

I want to second the Eileen Flanagan pamphlet mentioned above. Harriet Heath also wrote a very good one that addresses nurturing Quaker approaches to spirituality (I know, an overly broad category), "Answering that of God in our children."

I am drawn to read books that fall under the attachment parenting heading, and also books that "educate for freedom." actually, John Holt's books on unschooling have been very helpful in terms of how to guide and teach skills within a liberatory framework.

Eventually I reached out to a Mennonite congregation near me, because my meeting had no other parents of young children. I needed to be able to ask a peer, "What do you do when..." or "How do you approach...." and at least know that an orientation toward peacemaking would be at the core of the response. Of course, older meeting members could tell me what they did when their kids were younger, but I felt a strong need  to have peers with whom I could share.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mackenzie on 2nd mo. 10, 2012 at 6:02pm

I'm not a parent, so grain of salt ;)

I maintain the opinion that setting a good example from the earliest age is what's important. Consistent rules probably have the best chance of being followed. That's not to say "when you're 8" or "when you can reach it safely" can't be part of a rule, but Irish twins (two kids, one year) being treated differently because one's a boy and one's a girl? You'll have a rebellion on your hands.

Or be an awful example and make your kids go "ugh, I do NOT want to be like my mother!" so they do the opposite and behave well ^_^  (joking! Only mostly-grown kids will recognize "mom's behaving like spoiled brat. How embarrassing. Note to self: don't do that")

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lauren Smith on 3rd mo. 2, 2012 at 12:35am

Thanks for the replies and recommendations! I have read some of the Sears' AP books. I also am reading a book by Aletha Solter, called Helping Young Children Flourish, which has a section on sexism (thanks for bringing that up, Mackenzie, it really is an important consideration). Lisa Rand, you brought up unschooling and I am finding that Quaker values are influencing my search for an education system for my daughter... for me personally, it has drawn me to the Montessori system, and I'm exploring the possibility of starting a Montessori co-op where I live (because there are no Montessori schools for hundreds of miles, even if I could afford a private one). Unschooling definitely makes sense in a Quaker context. Emma Woolliams, I agree, parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done! Certainly the most serious commitment I've ever made. And how to teach faith is a big question... I think they begin to pick much of it up through osmosis, at least the parts that speak loudest. I think what is most important in our faith to us, we have no trouble sharing through our lifestyle and actions, or casual conversation.

Pacifism is very difficult to explain, especially when some of the playmates come from non-pacifist families. There are a few little boys who taught my daughter about guns and swords, and explaining to her that we don't do that without saying anything that she couldn't fully process and yet could potentially say back to offend the parents... is difficult, and it's a delicate situation. I don't know why so many parents resort to warfare-play to satisfy the action/adventure impulses in their children, especially their sons. Recently I was reading about the 1925 "Great Race of Mercy", on which the children's film 'Balto' was based, and I thought that it had all of the elements that attract children to war-play... danger, adventure, challenge, and heroism. So there are definitely pacifist scenarios that could be adapted for action/adventure play without compromising on the attractive aspects of pretend violence and warfare. Anyway, I am slowly trying to instill non-violent values in my daughter. Simplicity is a little more difficult... she already wants a pink car and a castle, and I can't say those are really terrible things to have... if used for the right purpose... but I think it's obvious that she's been exposed to materialism, and that's mostly the fault of her parents.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Karen D on 3rd mo. 6, 2012 at 9:05am

Lisa mentioned many of the books I turn to. I too wanted some quakerly books but didn't find a lot to turn to. I did find one that called to me while at a retreat but I failed to note the name. I find respectful patenting to be the most logical. I also really like P.E.T.: Parent Effectiveness Training and feel it is the best at incorporating faith into everyday learning lessons as well. Parenting is hard and I am finding daily prayer to be one is the strongest tool at my disposal as I parent my toddlers and teen. 

Lauren Smith said:

Thanks for the replies and recommendations! I have read some of the Sears' AP books. I also am reading a book by Aletha Solter, called Helping Young Children Flourish, which has a section on sexism (thanks for bringing that up, Mackenzie, it really is an important consideration). Lisa Rand, you brought up unschooling and I am finding that Quaker values are influencing my search for an education system for my daughter... for me personally, it has drawn me to the Montessori system, and I'm exploring the possibility of starting a Montessori co-op where I live (because there are no Montessori schools for hundreds of miles, even if I could afford a private one). Unschooling definitely makes sense in a Quaker context. Emma Woolliams, I agree, parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done! Certainly the most serious commitment I've ever made. And how to teach faith is a big question... I think they begin to pick much of it up through osmosis, at least the parts that speak loudest. I think what is most important in our faith to us, we have no trouble sharing through our lifestyle and actions, or casual conversation.

Pacifism is very difficult to explain, especially when some of the playmates come from non-pacifist families. There are a few little boys who taught my daughter about guns and swords, and explaining to her that we don't do that without saying anything that she couldn't fully process and yet could potentially say back to offend the parents... is difficult, and it's a delicate situation. I don't know why so many parents resort to warfare-play to satisfy the action/adventure impulses in their children, especially their sons. Recently I was reading about the 1925 "Great Race of Mercy", on which the children's film 'Balto' was based, and I thought that it had all of the elements that attract children to war-play... danger, adventure, challenge, and heroism. So there are definitely pacifist scenarios that could be adapted for action/adventure play without compromising on the attractive aspects of pretend violence and warfare. Anyway, I am slowly trying to instill non-violent values in my daughter. Simplicity is a little more difficult... she already wants a pink car and a castle, and I can't say those are really terrible things to have... if used for the right purpose... but I think it's obvious that she's been exposed to materialism, and that's mostly the fault of her parents.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 6, 2012 at 11:23am

I see I may be preaching to the choir with this one... but I've found an excellent talk on parenting practices by Dr. Gabor Mate (with erratic amplification, sorry!)

which seems to also tie into other discussions here re punitive 'moralities of order'-- why they have their psychological appeal, & where they fall short.

Why & whence the widespread modern fears of that we're 'losing control,' not just of our kids, but of the whole situation of human life?-- and why do I find so many Quakers, when it isn't our own kids at stake, so readily primed to frame the discussions in ways that frame the victims?

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion