Comment by Tom Smith on 7th mo. 4, 2010 at 8:55pm

My major concern in the discussion is not defining or labeling Meetings or even individuals but rather in trying to understand how I am to interpret the teachings of the Old and New Testament. "What is required is love mercy, do justice and walk humbly with thy God." "Not everyone that cries Lord, Lord . . . " "If you love me you will do what I command you." etc.

Is one "like Christ" defined by actions or by words? Is Faith defined by words or do "lives speak?"

I have known people who spoke all the words but still treated others with prejudice and at times even what seemed to be hatred. I have known others who were unclear and even uncomfortable in using the "right" words, but who lived as if the sermon on the mount were their guide and who heard what Jesus spoke of when he said "You have heard it said ... But I say unto you ..."

I would much prefer that all those who spoke the words lived by them and those who lived the life would be able to use the words, but that does not seem to be probable as long as "both sides" insist their side is the better or correct side. I understand the "convergent" movement is meant to converge the "walk with the talk" (if I can use that phrase) but I still see words getting in the way. I do not have answers, but I trust we can understand "where the words come from."

Comment by Paula Roberts on 7th mo. 4, 2010 at 9:31pm

Linda, I love thee's concept of intervisitation. It makes me think that some of the hurt feelings stem from us being comfortable in our own camps and satisfied to speculate as to what might be going on in the other camp. It's interesting that when thee recommends we visit other meetings I am excited to do so, when a short time ago in another blog a person recommended the same thing but in such a condescending (perceived) way of "you'll know what you're missing..." that I was not at all moved to do so. Now I'm going to make a point of visiting a conservative Quaker meeting...if I can find one in my neck of the woods.

Comment by Rosemary Gould on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 10:28am

I'm a Christian in a liberal meeting, but this question is very important to me rather as a query for my own practice. Thank you for asking it. I have no doubt I was directed to my meeting by the Holy Spirit, so its lack of Christian self-definition is irrelevant to me right now. I haven't been inspired with zeal to convert others in the meeting, in other words. As far as I know, that isn't why I was sent there.

For a time, after I had been attending a year or two, I started to explore other religions. I read a lot of Buddhist magazines and tried practicing mindfulness and insight meditation. I started a yoga practice. I learned a lot about the mind, and the yoga has been very valuable for my physical and mental health. I think that for some reason I needed to do this exploration. At the same time, I wondered if I was drifting away from Jesus--I certainly was. I think the lack of reinforcement of my Christianity in the meeting at least didn't interfere with that drift. But my experience has been such that I know God has plenty of power to draw me back and I have prayed that that might be done. Gradually I've lost interest in Buddhism. It's a wonderful religion, but I don't really want to wake up to emptiness and impermanence. That isn't what I'm seeking. I haven't been able to develop a meditation practice. I believe that that path ultimately leads to the same place (God--whether you call God Jesus or Compassion) and that the proof of this is in the people who are revered for the same qualities in these different traditions. But Buddhism is not the path for me. I'm a Christian. I need to return to the practice that speaks to me.

There are a few Friends in my meeting whose ministry seems to me consistently deep and enriching. They tend to be older and also people who were raised in Christian churches (not birthright Quakers) and so were steeped in the Bible at an early age. They also tend to be people who have been through intense suffering of various kinds in their lives and people who have committed themselves to the service of others. One Friend, for instance, had her spine crushed in an accident when she was a college student and had her first experience of the presence of God immediately after that event. She's a nurse in a psychiatric hospital and someone whose presence in a Meeting qualitatively changes it for me. Her messages still live in my memory years afterwards.

Participating in Quaker Quaker and reading Christian Quaker blogs has also helped me become more centered again. I realize that I need to start practicing with the kind of devotion that I admire in others. As Baltimore Yearly Meeting's Faith and Practice states, "Nurturing the life of the Spirit requires frequent communication with the Divine Spirit. It is not sufficient to rely solely on an hour (or less) on First Day mornings, or on brief moments of silence before meals or committee meetings. We should make room in each day to know that of God within ourselves." For me this "room" involves reading the Bible and other helpful religious writings, prayer and silent worship, and service to those in need. I am realizing that I've been very disobedient to my own leading in not practicing this daily devotion, since I have known for a long time that I ought to be. Please hold me in the Light that I may start to be faithful to it again. If I want silent worship at Meeting to be gathered under the wings of the Divine, I have to do my part to make that possible.

Comment by Micah Bales on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 10:40am

Hi Javaughn,

I understand why you felt ouchy about this statement from Crossroads Friends Meeting. Any statement that defines us by who we are not can be hurtful to those who are defined as the "other." Conservative Friends would do well to examine this practice of self-defining as against. It is not attractive.

That being said, I think that many of the responses to your question have missed the point. The question here is not what makes an individual a Christian; it is what makes a collective body - a local Meeting - Christian. Liberal Quakerism as it presently exists simply does not concern itself with this question. In my experience, the Liberal Quaker stream focuses on the faith life of each individual member, while corporate statements of belief are downplayed.

In the Conservative tradition, on the other hand, the focus is not primarily on the personal beliefs of each individual - instead, it is on the collective faith and practice of the entire worshiping community. For example, Ohio Yearly Meeting and its constituent Monthly Meetings are explicitly and corporately Christian. The entire mission of this body of Friends is explicitly to grow into a deeper walk with Christ Jesus and to serve others in his name.

So, I think it's counterproductive to debate whether certain individuals are Christian or not. That's not the issue at hand: It's the difference between the Liberal doctrine of individual freedom and the Conservative doctrine of corporate witness in matters of belief and practice.

Blessings in Christ,

Micah
http://www.valiantforthetruth.com
http://www.lambswar.com

Comment by Bill Samuel on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 10:43am

Isabel Penraeth stated, "My definition of a Christian meeting is one that meets under the headship of Christ." This makes sense to me. It doesn't say that everyone in the meeting has to meet some rigid definition of Christian. It doesn't say that people have to ascribe to a particular set of doctrines. It does establish the center as Christ.

I have found that in liberal meetings of which I have been familiar, generally Friends viewed "gathered" or "covered" meetings as something rare. But when a group of us began meeting weekly under the headship of Christ, we found they happened week after week. They were the norm. My experience is that it really does make a difference.

Do many of the Friends in liberal meetings often act in Christlike ways? Definitely, in my experience. Do their meetings for worship sometimes take on the character of being under the headship of Christ? Yes, in my experience. I have seen amazing things happen where liberal Friends put aside all their doubts and really acted in Christ despite their lack of an understanding in their minds of the basis of that. These meetings tend to be filled with people who genuinely want to follow God-Spirit-whatever they call it and to love others as themselves. They can transcend their faith understanding at times. But I would still not call them Christian meetings.

Living in an area of liberal meetings, I wound up leaving my meeting and joining a church focused on discipleship to Jesus Christ. I miss waiting worship (but honestly, often unprogrammed worship at liberal meetings did not feel like waiting worship to me), but I find a depth in the common journey walking with Christ and wrestling with what it means to live out our faith that seldom seemed present in the liberal meetings I had attended for decades.

My current faith community calls itself a community of hope and transformation, which seems to me to be an accurate description. When I went back one Sunday to my old meeting after several months where I am now, I was startled by how different the atmosphere was. Friends seemed really burdened down with all the social concerns. Folks in my church care about these matters too, but there is a palpable spirit of joy in my faith community. The difference seems to me to be a hope that Jesus Christ brings that those who don't have a commitment to Jesus Christ find it very hard to have.

Comment by Javaughn Fernanders on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 2:03pm

@Michah. Simply spoken thank you. It adds to my understanding of the definition and has actually eased my "ouch."

Comment by Rosemary Gould on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 2:16pm

Micah,
I also really appreciate such a simple, nonjudgmental summary of the difference.

I don't agree that others have missed the point, though. We were responding to the underlying assertion, which Bill repeats above, that that lack of corporate Christian agreement results in a serious reduction in the quality of worship for liberal Friends. I think each liberal Friend who has commented has intended to suggest that they find their meetings to be full of the Spirit despite that difference.
Rosemary

Comment by Javaughn Fernanders on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 3:16pm

In all my other blogs I have never had such a number of comments. Whatever happens with this initial post, I feel blessed that in the spiritual community I have chosen, people care deeply, thanks all (you don't have to stop your comments I'm just saying thanks).

Comment by DianeReynolds on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 6:37pm

I have been in meetings where people stood up and gave disparaging messages about Christians that equated all Christians with fundamentalists or George Bush or people who went on Crusades. This was very uncomfortable for me, both in terms of the scorn and derision heaped on Christians and the fact that people would think it was acceptable to use such caricatures towards Christians when they would never do that to blacks, Jew, Muslims, gays, etc. I have also been defined by ugly stereotypes when I've told certain Quakers I'm a Christian. I've been told "You must believe A, B or C" thing which I hardly believe! Does this make entire meetings "Non-Christian?" I don't know. Would we call a church racist or homophobic if a member stood up and derided blacks or gays and nobody said a word in defense of those groups? Probably. If a black person came to a meeting and a member came up to them afterwards and said, "Oh you're black, you must love fried chicken?" would we be appalled? Probably. Yet comparable things have happened to me and the attitude is often, well, THAT person was injured by Christians. In other words, the aggressor is defended. Is that Christian?

Comment by Christine Manville Greenland on 7th mo. 5, 2010 at 8:13pm

When I came to Friends in a very diverse meeting, there was probably no way I could stretch far enough to use the term "Christian" to refer to myself, even though my name indicates that it's a part of my tradition.

At my most reactive, a Friend in Boulder Meeting (Elise Boulding) commented that before I sought membership, I should "explore the variety possible among Friends" and then "see if I could still stand Friends' company." As I explored, I found a definite kinship with both Conservative Friends and Evangelical Friends; that, I learned later, was her hope. At the same time, some Friends have taken exception to my choice of words to describe my faith as both Christain and Quaker. That's all right. It is who I am.

Still, there are times when I find it easier to speak with Catholics about the inward grace pointed to by outward forms than to labor with a Friend who is allergic to Christian language. Perhaps it's too much like looking in a mirror from the past.

The good news -- Christ found me, not the other way around. Because of this turning point, I need to be faithful to what I am given, without labels, but with love. I've seen meetings that were Christian by name -- but not in action. I've seen meetings that were non-Christian in name -- but that modeled Christ's injunction to love neighbor as self with all the variety possible.

It's a bit like Margaret Fell's protest about the insistence on a uniform hodden grey... What is our faith? Is it living and vibrant, or has it become (whatever its label) "silly poor gospel"?

Meetings, like individuals, change with time in both character and expression. Perhaps tenderness toward each other is warranted as we help each other lovingly over the rough patches that loom as stumbling blocks. Many elder Friends did this for me. I am most grateful that they were patient as I struggled.

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