Comment by Jim Wilson on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 11:12am

Good Morning Howad:

I'm happy to deny that Jesus 'shed any outward forms'.  Jesus taught people to pray.  Jesus specifically argued for the efficacy of the ten commandments (in his interaction with the rich young man who asked how he could enter heaven).  There are many examples like this.

As an aside, I disagree that the Gosples were written 'generations later'; that is a modernist fable that, I would argue, is not supported by the textual or historical evidence.  There are a range of opinions regarding the dating of the Gospels.  I fall into the 'early daters', but a case can be made for other interpretations.  I'm not saying your view has no support; I'm simply pointing out that it is not the consensus among biblical scholars, neither in the past nor at the present time.

More important to me is that Christianity is an incarnational religion.  God becomes flesh in Jesus.  Traditionally there is not a strident separation between the material world and the spiritual world.  There is a difference; I'm not saying they are the same.  But they are also connected through transcendent love and grace.  It is for this reason that form is not the enemy of spirit, rather form is the door to the spiritual.  That is why people can have spiritual openings in nature or through music or through art.  There is a kind of resonance between the inner light and the outer forms. 

Best wishes.

Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 11:41am

Jim Wilson:  Well put!

Comment by Keith Saylor on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 1:16pm

Mark 10:17-31

"17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples hwere amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again,“Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” 28 Peter began to say to him, “See, we have left everything and followed you.” 29 Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” ESV version

end quote

Jesus is not here arguing for the efficacy of the outward 10 commandments. He here tells the man the he follows the commandments. He is not here telling him to follow the commandments, he is making it clear that he knows the man follows the commandments. The man agrees that he is fact does follow the outward 10 commandments. Jesus then says to the man that following the outward 10 commandments is not sufficient. Jesus, then says to inherit eternal life he must give up all outward things and follow him. The act of following Jesus is the literal act of anchoring meaning, purpose, consciousness, being, in the active direct and unmediated experience of the inward Light within the conscious and conscience. It is to find no meaning, purpose, validation, consciousness, in following the outward to commandments, family relations, community relations, institutional relations, ideological relations, traditional relations, or relations with the things of the nature world. Inheriting eternal life is literally the direct and unmediated experience of the inward, inspired Light anchoring the conscious and informing the conscience. The man did not have the strength to let go of all outward forms because his very meaning, purpose, and consciousness where anchored in his following the outward 10 commandments and the whole panoply of outward things and relations. Form was and is a hindrance to inheriting eternal life.

The inherit we are given in the grace of Christ inspired in our conscious and conscience is independence from being or consciousness anchored in outward forms. The is the gift of Christ. This is eternal life and our heritage.

Jim, there are many of us who, through the power of inspired Immediacy itself, point to a completely different way of being and consciousness in this life. We point to a new life and new heritage through the inward Spirit working in our conscious and conscience. I understand that this way is not your way. However, we are not beholden to your message of adherence to and resonance with outward forms. We are the Children of Light, dwellers in the Light itself and are beholden only to that measure of inspired Light within us. We have been lead out of a conscious and conscience beholden to and resonating with outward forms. As God became flesh in Jesus so God has become flesh within us. Literally, the spirit of God is incarnate in our conscious and conscience. I understand our message exasperates you and you feel the need to establish the validity of outward forms. You are welcome at any time at our doorstep, for ultimately, by the power of the incarnate Presence itself within us, while we do not seek your validation, we recognize that our spiritual heritage is your heritage too.  

Comment by Keith Saylor on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 2:15pm

There was one other thing I neglected to add to my last post.

Notice that Jesus answer the man's question about how to inherit eternal life by telling him he must give up all his outward identifications. Jesus does not temper his response with something like:

"Well, it is clear you are not at a place were  you will give up everything and follow me. So here is a smaller, more manageable, list of things you must give up because I know everyone is at a difference place and I believe in inclusiveness. Will you give these things up? I'm not hurting your feelings am I? If you agree that this list is manageable and is not hurtful to you emotionally and give up these things, then you will inherit eternal life."

Jesus states clearly and unambiguously here that inheriting eternal life is giving up all outward identities and following him to the exclusion of all other things.

Comment by Howard Brod on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 2:19pm

I read clearly that Jesus shed outward forms and advocated the same for others. Still, he was willing to use these forms as a tool to reach others who placed so much value upon them; but he never wanted his followers to seek these tools as an end result. 

And I have seen that the same Spirit within him works similarly in our day.  And I clearly read that Jesus held out for his listeners the same incarnation of God that he had.  The great "mistake" (sin) of Christendom has been that it holds Jesus in a special place that it teaches, by implication, is not attainable by others.  This implied teaching short-circuits the realization of the fullness of the Spirit that Jesus acknowledged as all of our rightful inheritance.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 10th mo. 21, 2015 at 7:51pm

The point of a 'rich young man' story in 1st Century Israel is that the man is rich precisely because he, or his family, has collected considerable property at the expense of his neighbors, rather than loan them enough to survive, interest-free & without foreclosure, as the Torah demands. Technical compliance with the first 10 (but violating the First Commandment's demand to put God first, above Mammon & all other idols) is not the point; he essentially holds stolen property and needs to make restitution, as a 'tax collector' in a later story offers to do.

The wealth alluded to in this story would not have been accumulated had the family been finding their wealth in inward communion with God -- and acting accordingly -- and can be used as you have as a symbol of outward 'treasures' that should not be allowed to obscure what's available within -- but Jesus does not tell the man to "Pray silently until you're ready to give up the goodies."  Those assets are concrete resources needed immediately by thousands of 'the poor' who have become poor precisely because predatory lending of the sort customary in Roman commercial practices has increasingly been depriving many Israelites of the means of sustenance, leading indirectly but implacably to the disastrous revolt of 40 years later.

Comment by Jim Wilson on 10th mo. 22, 2015 at 9:17am

Good Morning:

That's fun!  I have a very busy day today, so I will have to be briefer than I would like.  I don't read the Gospels through a supersessionist lens.  Because we have different starting points we see the writings differently.  I'm fine with that. 

I read the passage in question as stating that the commandments are necessary, but not sufficient.  I realize you read it differently; people can view our two interpretations and decide for themselves.

Howard: there are numerous places in the Gospels where Jesus teaches a specific form.  His teachings on divorce are actually stricter than traditional Judaism, as one example.

Forest: None of the material you offer is in the Gospels themselves.  We don't really know why the young man is rich.  

Take care,

Jim

Comment by Howard Brod on 10th mo. 22, 2015 at 10:32am

Thanks Jim for providing me the opportunity to clarify my comments about "form". 

I was speaking of religious traditions, doctrines, and rites that make one feel "holy" and reconciled to God.  These are the forms that Jesus rejected as having no substance.  Instead he advised and exemplified seeking the Spirit from within.  That is why meditation and prayer were a core practice of his.

As far as living life in harmony with 'Love and Light', you are correct that when asked questions by listeners who were struggling with life, he certainly did point them to behaviors that would exemplify 'Love and Light' in the context of life in Palestine in the first century.  And he was very willing to reject advice from the Old Testament (Hebrew scriptures) that did not fall in line with 'Love and Light' for the day and time Jesus was then living.

This, for me, is a clear model of how Spirit-led persons should view applying 'Love and Light' in our modern world.  While Old Testament advice and Jesus' own advice are worth reading and considering, if we don't seek the Light within (but instead hang on to those ancient words literally) we are missing the whole example and message that Jesus was providing us.  It was entirely a message of turning to the Spirit to seek 'Love and Light' so we may apply it to ourselves and others.

The above is classic liberal Quaker understanding.  And I was drawn to liberal Quakerism because I believe this was the whole message and example of Jesus.  Again, his message was NOT that we should hang on the 'words of old' in an idolatrous fashion - even his own advices for everyday living.

Religious forms (again, I'm not speaking of outward behaviors that manifest 'Love and Light') can certainly move people to spiritual feelings.  However, when these religious forms become a practice that is deemed necessary to be reconciled to God, we have crossed the line into idolatry.  The only practice for perceiving the Spirit within is going to that Source directly through centering our lives in it; and during times when we need more clarity - using 'expectant waiting' for the manifestation of the Spirit in our consciousness. 

This too is classic liberal Quakerism.  However, liberal Quaker meetings all too often slip into using forms to feel "Quakerly" or "righteous".  I have written extensively about this (for example refer to Let's Get Real within 'Liberal Quakers' in QuakerQuaker.org).  Liberal Quaker worship may be based on 'expectant waiting' worship; but many Friends in those meetings think committees, vestiges of plain speech, membership, named elders, on and on are an indications of being in-line with the Spirit.  Our organizational structures in these liberal Quaker meetings should be as simple as our worship.  Everything done in our meetings should be conducive to the free-flowing of the Spirit among us.  The danger of organizational forms when used for spiritual matters is we can all slip into emulating Pharisees.  Forms for spiritual matters should be viewed with suspicion, perhaps as necessary evils that should be avoided like the plague.

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 10th mo. 22, 2015 at 11:37am

Howard, you are right in saying that Liberal Quakers mistake their beliefs and practices for "being in-line with the Spirit." That was also a problem for the Pharisees in Jesus's time as well as the professing Christians that Fox knew prior to his great opening. After that opening, Fox saw the Scriptures and tradition had a different meaning for him from what they had before, because in receiving the Spirit of Christ, he then knew the same Spirit in which the scriptures and the tradition had been recorded. His inward spiritual discoveries he later found to be confirmed in Scripture. 

There is a difference between adhering to empty words and forms, that is, mimicking true faith, and finding that wisdom in Christ that one has received is verified and affirmed by that ancient wisdom in Christ that others have known and recorded. If there is no confirmation from that recorded source of wisdom, i.e. the scriptures and our tradition, then one should assume that one has not yet come into it. It is important to realize that human nature is fallen, and as such the man of sin will mistake himself for God (2 Thess. 2:3-4), if unchecked.

Comment by Howard Brod on 10th mo. 22, 2015 at 11:54am

Thanks Patricia for sharing.  I always love hearing your insights.

I guess for me, I see the same problem you note in regards to the Bible itself.  That ancient wisdom (that doesn't always agree with itself) also came from people just like me and you - people trying to live out the Spirit in their time and culture.

While I find reading it very edifying and something to consider in the Presence of the Spirit, I do not feel bound to it.  For me, I would feel like I've fallen into idolatry to do so. 

In the end, the 'Love and Light' of Christ is entirely sufficient for me.  When I use a book (Bible or otherwise) as a barometer, it is a strange thing to do spiritually.   I can only speak for myself, here.

Maybe we are saying the same thing - coming from different angles.  Words are so funny that way.

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