Comment by David McKay on 5th mo. 28, 2017 at 8:31pm

Wow! So much fire and I forgot to bring the marshmallows!

Comment by Keith Saylor on 5th mo. 29, 2017 at 5:06am

Ellis … I am the Life itself in itself and the Life is in my conscious and conscience. That Life is sufficient in itself to guide and admonish without regard for the outward admonishments of others. You have admonished (to use your own word) that God has told you to tell me that the testimony to the witness of being that so participates in the Life itself that it can stand before you and state unequivocally “I know that Life and that Life is in me and I am the Life” and that I should turn or forsake that inward witness or I will die; for this is the word of God that he has given you to say unto me.

Ellis, I have turned from a life of being and existence that sets itself up as God through identification with and submission to and faith in, outward forms, prescriptions, and admonishments and into the Gospel Order of the sufficiency of the inward manifestation of the Word itself within; of which I am and which is Life eternal.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 5th mo. 29, 2017 at 3:17pm

Keith, I am glad to see your statement that you have "turned from a life of being and existence that sets itself up as God through identification with and submission to and faith in, outward forms, prescriptions, and admonishments and into the Gospel Order of the sufficiency of the inward manifestation of the Word itself within;..." My admonishments have never been for you to turn from that inward state, but to turn from your claim that you are the source of life. If you will, read again my original admonition to you, "Jesus, the Messiah of God, IS the Life. You do not come to life except in Him. If you are claiming that you are yourself that life, you are deceived and walk in darkness." You can claim, and I hope you enjoy, the fruits of receiving the life within yourself. But no one can bear fruit of the life of Christ and confuse the source of that life. No one enjoying the fruit of walking in the life and light of Christ will point others to some other source, but encourage them to find the same life and power, which is Jesus as much today as ever. This is the issue that has been at stake since the beginning: "If you are claiming to be the source..." Look again at your words that you have written and see where they point [I hope I have not taken them out of context and therefore distort their meaning]: "For I affirm, I am the Life in me and able alleviate to plight of men and women. I am able to enlighten people. I am the Life and I am able to do all those thing you say I am unable. I am the Life itself in itself and the Life is all around me and those who know this Life I also know. For the Life who they are and the Life who I am, is One with the Life that was Jesus and the Life that is come again and is coming upon his death and resurrection. As those early Quakers, my conscious and conscience is turned to the Light itself and I will hold to that measure of who I am in Light and for in the Light I am the Light itself." Do your words point people to Jesus, who is the source of life? Or do they point people to Keith Saylor?

James Nayler had this to say after his deep sufferings at Bristol and his repentance of the wrong doings he had participated in: "And Hadst thou gifts, revelations, knowledge, wisdom, or whatever thou canst read of in the Scriptures of truth, and dost not abide in the Light and feed on the body of Christ, whence the gifts spring, but feedest on the gift, thou mayest be up for a while in thy own sight, but certainly thou wilt wither and die to God, and darkness will come upon thee, and thy food will turn to thy condemnation in the sight of God." (Taken from a tract entitled "Counsel To All under all circumstances to wait for and in the Light of Christ in the Heart for deliverence from evil and for daily living bread: from a paper written by James Nayler in the year 1659", which I found in the back of Lewis Benson's Bible.)

Keith, this is what is at stake for you in this issue, and this why I persist in being obedient to the promptings of Christ Jesus within me to cause you to look at what you are saying and at the significance of your words.

Comment by Howard Brod on 5th mo. 29, 2017 at 7:39pm

All these words are just "blah, blah, blah" to me, and don't justify judging any person's heart. To use such words to judge another is nothing but making words into a God, and it breaks my heart.

Keith, there is beautiful freedom and fulfilment in just being in the Light - just as Jesus experienced when he emanated from the Light as a human being.  There is no need to justify your deep identification with our heavenly father - just as Jesus did.  Christian mystics have done so for eons. Anyone who is not into ancient human words as tools for eternal judgement, is able to hear and understand the holy place you are coming from in your expressions.  You do not owe any explanation to those who are unable and unwilling to hear the pureness of your heart.  Speak your truth.

Comment by David McKay on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 6:31am

I'm sorry. I came fairly late to this conversation. And I made a campfire/marshmallow comment above hoping to alleviate the tension somewhat.

So let's try this again. In my opinion and in my lived experience certainty is actually a liability when the goal is understanding. And what I see and hear are people who have become so certain of their spiritual experiences that they believe they are qualified to discount the wisdom in each other. In most settings the wise course of action would be to withdraw from the field of battle, lick your wounds, and then when you come back ready to engage again — come back ready to listen. The best way to convince another of your position is to try and find out what the common ground is first and then try to understand the reason/reasons for your differences.

If this was a face-to-face a Quaker setting I think somebody would call for a period of waiting worship to expose the conflicts to the Light.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 8:37am

Thank you, David, for your words. You speak of tension, of certainty, of withdrawing from fields of battle, and of worship. Have I left out anything? So where in the above list does persistent promptings from Jesus to write what I have written come in? It is my over-riding concern to be faithful to what Christ has given me to do. In that concern to be faithful also lies the full confidence that if I am mistaken in what I feel led to do, He will prevent or correct. This is the assurance He has given me. (I have seen it in action in this discussion as well as in other situations.) I have not written out of a sense of battle, tension, or conflict, rather my words have risen out of periods of waiting before Christ, waiting to know, first if I am to respond and second how to respond.

There are at least two things at stake in this discussion. (1.)The well-being of one or more individuals, whose well-being is precious in the eyes of God. (2.)The clarity of the message we are presenting to others seeking to find the life and power that overcomes ungodliness within ourselves and in the world. Faithfullness to the leadings of Christ alone will accomplish His ends; certainly not my wisdom or my ability.

This is as full an explanation as I can give, which your words seem to call for.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 10:06am

Hello Ellis. I appreciate you challenging me to look of the “significance of my words” and for your sharing of the prompting Jesus has given you. As I have written earlier in this thread, our discussion with has been edifying even in the face of our lack of unity.

In and couple days, I will be leaving my home (for a few weeks) along Oregon’s southwest coast and entering the Blue Mountains in eastern Oregon. While there, it will be my job, to go out ahead of loggers to document the presence of nesting birds in the area to be logged. Such documentation will result in the creation of buffer zones around the nesting birds to help reduce nest failure caused by logging activity.

During my down time, I will be studying Lichen species in the area. As you have shared your promptings from Jesus concerning me I am now come again to share with you my witness (experience) of the inward Light in my conscious and conscience with you in the form of a parable of sorts. Jesus is recorded to have spoken of parable of the seed and James is recorded to have spoken the engrafted word; each of which speak to the mystery of a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by immanent Presence itself in itself. I am come to you speaking that mystery in the form of another parable. The parable of lichenized being.

There is a wonderful mystery that happens in the natural world wherein two separate and distinct species (fungi and algae) come together, under the appropriate conditions and on the appropriate substrate, to form a new species that exists in itself. This new and independent species we call Lichen or lichenized forms. I am come before you speaking and writing of a new or different way of being. This different Life knows experientially, through personal witness, “I am the Light and the Light is in me.” I am of a lichenized Life. Wherein you are of a life that professes (by your own admission) “I am the Light” and the Light is in me” are two different things and further that the former is of a spirit of deception and darkness and the latter is of God, I am of a Life and existence that lives the unity of both and not the dichotomy. “I am the Light” and “the Light is in me” are no longer contradictory as they are for you and in transcending that contradiction I am come into a different Life like unto the coming together of algae and fungi resulting the the manifestation of a different being.

You asked me, “Do your words point people to Jesus, who is the source of life? Or do they point people to Keith Saylor?” Again, in the Life (the experience of the mystery of a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by the inward Light) there is no such dichotomy. “I am the Light and the Light is in me” speaks and affirms at one and the same time the Life of Christ and the ramifications and significance of that life in individual human beings which is a lichenization of the two into a new being or mind.

The other wonder is that algae and fungi still exist as separate beings. That is, the existence of this different life formed in the union of algae and fungi does not erase or negate algae and fungi as separate beings in themselves. I the like manner, the coming into discovery of the unity between “I am the Life and the Life is in me” does not negate the experience of the distinction between the two. The new independent lichenized life exists along side the separate existence of both. That is reality.

So, Ellis, again, I affirm. “I am the Life and the Life is in me” and in that affirmation I am speaking the Word itself in itself in the Name itself that others may come into and share and fellowship in the mystery of a lichenized life different from the dichotomized life. This is the witness, in unity with the Inward Christ and in the Name itself, I am given me to share with you and to all others. It is the witness of which I am informed and guided. I acknowledge that you (by your own admission) do not live in unity with “I am the Life and the Life in is me,” and instead experience the two as separate and one as godly and one as evil. I am not informed by the Life you profess for I am come into a different Way.

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 2:35pm

Unlike Jesus's parables which have withstood the test of time and the scrutiny of many millions of people, your lichenization parable falls apart very quickly. There is no analogy between the coming together of two separate life forms on the one hand, and on the other, Christ's coming to his own: to as many as receive him. Neither algae nor fungi have wills; nor do they engineer their transformation. God and his Christ do, however, have a will and an order for our transformation into the new creation, as salvation history records. This is the source of our unity in Christ, not some natural melding. When we have been given faith and have entered a hearing/obeying relationship with God, then we find ourselves transformed; we are  new creatures in Christ. Then the light shines out of the darkness, and we see ourselves as we were prior to knowing Christ, a darkened, alienated state of being. Until then, that darkness prevails; blind and confused, man conflates those states of being which are easily distinguishable when the Light is known: autonomy (alienation from God) and dependency upon God cannot be conflated when the light is known; darkness and light cannot be conflated when the light is known; the statements "I am the Light" and "I am in the Light" cannot be conflated when the light is known. It is the Light of Christ that reveals what is darkness and what is Light. Without the Light, there is a conflation of darkness and Light, in darkness. Jesus speaks of this conflation when he states: If the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 

You have spoken of some parable of Jesus's that promotes your claim. I'm interested to know what that would be, also your explanation for how it supports your idea that you are the Light. John 15 has an extended metaphor that shows unequivocally our dependence upon Christ, the vine.  Jesus does not contradict himself, and so this passage should clarify any misconstrued interpolations you've formed for yourself. But still, I'm open to considering your argument. I hope you have a chance to present it here before you go, but if you don't, you can do it when you get back. Here's the passage from John 15: 

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Comment by David McKay on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 5:54pm

Friend Ellis, I would not stop you from speaking what God has given you to speak (nor Friend Keith for that matter either). I would counsel you both to mind the Light and to not outrun your Guide (note singular case).  You claim to speak what has with clarity been given you yet you both speak to cross purposes. That would suggest (to this bear of very small brain at least) that it has become time to lift the situation up in prayer. But of course I could be wrong. And I have been in similar situations before and my willingness to admit to imperfection generally makes my counsel void in such circumstances.  

Comment by Ellis Hein on 5th mo. 30, 2017 at 9:50pm

Keith, Thank you for your detailed explanation.  Beyond this, I am not given anything more to write at the moment.

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