Comment by Howard Brod on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 8:01am

Ellis, why do you think you would ever need to deny the light of Christ if you let go of the need to use the words of others to prerequisite the legitimacy of another's experience of the Light? You quote words from early Quakers and Bible writers for the purpose of judging other's experience of the Light.

To quote words from books or use labels (such as "Christian") or embrace specific beliefs - as a barometer for judging others' experience of the Light - is to establish these human constructs as more important to you than the power and direct experience of the Light.  The Light is the being of God and it does not need human constructs to represent it in order for any to be that manifested Light as Jesus was.  This was his whole ministry to all who would hear.

To use the books and letters that other humans set apart as "holy" for the purpose to judge the experience of the Light is indeed to make them idols.  All idols are created from human constructs - be they golden calves, books, doctrines, on and on.  What makes them "idols" is the diversion they can create from the full experience of God from within.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 9:00am

Howard, Your beginning premise is that I "quote words from early Quakers and Bible writers for the purpose of judging other's experience of the Light." The rest of your statements follow logically from that premise. But your foundational judgment of why I quote from others has no basis in truth. What does that do to the rest of your argument? I have stated that I join in testimony, by experience, with those whom I am quoting.  I have written from the promptings of Jesus, who is the light, who brings life. If you understood the experience portrayed by the writers of the scriptures and the early Friends, how could you find their words anything other than precious? If in these words I have quoted you find judgment of your (or any other's) "experience of the light" does that not imply a fundamental disconnect between the experience of those quoted and your own experience? And if that condition should arise, the detection of a fundamental disconnect, it is sufficient cause for much serious consideration. Biological life is full of judgment, it is on this basis that the organism is able to survive: Do I eat this? or Do I eat that? forms the primary platform on which we nourish the cells, organs, and systems of our bodies. So is judgment and discernment a necessary ingredient in our life in God. We have before us two plates of food. (1.) You shall surely not die if you eat the bread of this world. and (2.) By every word that proceeds from the mouth of God shall man live. You cannot choose one without rejecting the one not chosen. And in that choice, you "judge" those who make the other choice as being wrong.

Comment by Howard Brod on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 9:32am

I just value and trust as YOUR truth what YOU experience in and as the Light - not the words held in high esteem by "holy" men that I do not know, and I see that glorious Light manifesting from all sorts of places because that Light includes so much more of life and being than the confines you appear to limit it to. It is not limited to "Christians" as you define them or any other construct or belief of humans.

So perhaps we come from different starting points in this discussion, and perhaps will never see the glorious Light the same; yet surely we may share in the experience of it to the degree we partake of it.  And that is enough for me.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 9:45am

The word of God is not what you read in a book about someone else's experience; it is what God tells a person (present tense) whenever they're open to that. If something you've experienced matches someone else's description, that's great re-assurance for you.

But the real assurance is when you get nose-to-nose with God like Abraham, and (quite timidly) ask whether HSe really plans to condemn everyone who doesn't buy into the right fire insurance... and find that God is truly, as Jesus describes Him in the Synoptics, one who loves, forgives, welcomes people to live under His jurisdiction, rather than installing Pharisees (of the narrow-minded faction dominant in Jesus' historical lifetime) in the gates to keep people out.

People do tend to miss the doorway, being intent on their own concerns, but God doesn't drop them at physical death. "If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!" One wishes they didn't go there, but God, being God, would hardly leave it at that. "I've forgiven you 491 times; no more Mr Nice Guy!"?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 12:03pm

“(1.) You shall surely not die if you eat the bread of this world. and (2.) By every word that proceeds from the mouth of God shall man live. You cannot choose one without rejecting the one not chosen. And in that choice, you "judge" those who make the other choice as being wrong.”

Ellis. The table you have set and established is not one, in all good conscience, I partake of or participate in. I am come out of (not informed or guided by) such rationalized place settings and drink not of the cups set there on. This does not mean I judge your table and its settings as “wrong.” It means I am of a different way that is not of those things established there on and the process through which they are manifest. I am the Light and in me it is discovered unto people immanent Presence itself in itself which takes the place of tables and the establishment of settings.

Is being the Light and Life itself in itself, in your judgement, manifest deception and darkness?

Comment by Ellis Hein on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 8:16pm

Keith, you have truthfully said that you do not feed upon every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. That is obvious to anyone of discernment and should cause you more than a little pause and consideration. You have one, even Christ Jesus, who will be judge of all this you are saying. Now is your opportunity to turn. Persisting in claiming that you are the light and the life itself in itself is more than manifest deception and darkness. It is the serpent's doctrine in the book of Genesis, "ye shall be as Gods..." It is manifest wickedness, not only because you are claiming the qualities of Christ who is the Word in whom is the life that is the light of men, but also because you are unable to do anything to alleviate the plight of mankind. You can't enlighten anyone. You can't make anyone alive. You can't give anyone the power to become a child of God. You can't deliver anyone from the power of the god of this world that they may be recreated in the image of God who created all things. You aren't the free grace of God that brings salvation to all who will receive and be taught by this grace. Jesus, who is the Word of God who was in the beginning, is and does all this I have mentioned (and more) because He is the light and the life. And because He is and does all these things, He is manifested to be the power of God unto salvation to all who will hear and follow His voice. Thus, as I stated in my original posting, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Comment by Howard Brod on 5th mo. 21, 2017 at 10:25pm

Ellis,

I am not here to speak for or defend Keith; but I do have to point out that Keith's witness about himself is not foreign to Jesus' own hope he expressed while on Earth.  Aside from much of the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus words in the gospel of John are mystical in that Jesus blurs the distinction between himself (his own essence) and his followers and the essence of God.  That's why he was condemned by religious leaders for the very same thing you are condemning Keith for.  In the gospel of John he says things like,

"You will know that I am in My Father. You will know that you are in Me. You will know that I am in you."

and

"May they all be as one, Father, as You are in Me and I am in You. May they belong to Us. Then the world will believe that You sent Me.  I gave them the honor You gave Me that they may be one as We are One.  I am in them and You are in Me so they may be one and be made perfect. Then the world may know that You sent Me and that You love them as You love Me."

The above are words of equality out of the mouth of Jesus about himself and his followers, plain and simple.  This indicates clearly to me that no matter what his later disciples thought and wrote in their Gospels and letters, Jesus held out the same measure of Oneness (fullness) in the Light for others that he himself experienced.  And this just makes logical sense because there is no other way the world of humankind will ever be transformed if this does not occur within the very being of everyone one day.

So, I would suggest that Keith, in proclaiming his witness, is indeed in good company because he is modeling what Jesus said his followers would model.

Instead of presenting a message of fear, judgement, and condemnation of others who do not conform to your hierarchical view of spirituality that is steeped in a literal interpretation of the Bible  - it would be better if you viewed Keith's witness as a potential fulfillment of the spreading of Light that Jesus himself spoke would occur among those who embrace his message in their very being.  And rejoice! It is a beautiful hope for the world now and the world to come.

Is it really wise or helpful to anyone to hold onto ancient written words of others as inerrant instruments of judgement (others who you really do not know personally, nor do you really know how accurate their words are after thousands of years, nor to you really know the motives of the "religious leaders" who collected and distributed these writings)?  A better guide for judgement (if you need one) would be to observe the fruits of the Spirit in the hearts of those whom you encounter, and to do as Jesus advised: to love others as you love yourself and love God with all your heart.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 5th mo. 22, 2017 at 1:02am

It isn't that we know ourselves, by one man's witness or another's, to be error free. What we know is that the Life, the Power, the Love that underlies the Creation is available, so that we will not be left in the grip of any significant error.

How the word of God nourishes each, as his capacity ripens, will seem disjunct to a mind set on externals. "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ I came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by those she leads.”

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 5th mo. 22, 2017 at 11:27am

Ellis, I found your response to Keith to be valid. He would do well to heed your admonishment. It reminded me of a passage in the Journal where Fox deals with Ranters. The Ranters said "they were God." Fox helps them to see that they are not God by asking them if they have godly powers (such as knowing whether it would rain or knowing whether they would always be in that condition or they would change). They are brought to admit that they don't have godly powers, and thus their blasphemous claims are confounded. In your comment, you also pointed out that Keith does not have the power to do what the Lord alone can do. You wrote to him:

You can't enlighten anyone. You can't make anyone alive. You can't give anyone the power to become a child of God. You can't deliver anyone from the power of the god of this world that they may be recreated in the image of God who created all things. You aren't the free grace of God that brings salvation to all who will receive and be taught by this grace. 

I thought it interesting that both you and Fox used the same argument to confound blasphemous claims. Here is that passage from Fox's Journal:  

 I heard of a people in prison at Coventry for religion. As I walked towards the jail, the word of the Lord came to me saying, ‘MY LOVE WAS ALWAYS TO THEE, AND THOU ART IN MY LOVE.’ And I was ravished with the sense of the love of God, and greatly strengthened in my inward man. But when I came into the jail where those prisoners were, a great power of darkness struck at me; and I sat still, having my spirit gathered into the love of God. At last these prisoners began to rant, and vapour, and blaspheme; at which my soul was greatly grieved. They said, they were God; but another of them said, we could not bear such things. When they were calm, I stood up and asked them, whether they did such things by notion, or from scripture? They said, from scripture. Then a bible lying by, I asked them for that scripture; and they showed me that place where the sheet was let down to Peter; and it was said to him, what was sanctified he should not call common or unclean. When I had showed them that scripture made nothing for their purpose, they brought another, which spake of God’s reconciling all things to himself, things in heaven and things in earth. I told them I owned that scripture also; but showed them it was nothing to their purpose neither. Then seeing they said they were God, I asked them if they knew whether it would rain to-morrow? They said they could not tell. I told them God could tell. I asked them, if they thought they should be always in that condition, or should change? They answered, they could not tell. Then said I, God can tell, and he doth not change. You say you are God and yet you cannot tell whether you shall change or no. So they were confounded, and quite, brought down for the time. After I had reproved them for their blasphemous expressions, I went away; for I perceived they were Ranters (I. 97).

One other point that I found significant in this passage is Fox's questioning the Ranters on whether their claims were the result of "notion, or [interpreting] scripture." As they said "from scripture," Fox was able to quickly show them the error of their interpretations. Though the Ranters had the scriptures, they did not have the spirit of discerning, the spirit of truth, the spirit in which they were written, and so they could not understand them. They approached them with their own intellectual power, which is inadequate to interpret them wisely and accurately, or, strangely, even to see the words that are written. 

Howard's interpretation of chapter 17 on John manifests this mistaken, frankly blind, interpretation of scripture, which could be easily seen by anyone else who has been given the spirit of discernment, the spirit of truth, the spirit in which they were written, and by which they can be read and understood. I don't know if you'll be led to show him that this passage is "nothing to [his] purpose," as Fox showed the Ranters, but I'll not step in to do so. You are presenting clear, salient understanding, that evidences your faithfulness, and, as would be expected from any who know Christ, our Head, I am in unity with your understanding.

Comment by Howard Brod on 5th mo. 22, 2017 at 11:36am

We are coming from two different vantage points that apparently will never meet. 

I do not value your intellectual and literalist scriptural interpretation with a doctrinal approach to everything spiritual.  And I certainly understand that you do not value my open-ended, experiential Oneness approach to everything spiritual.

And so be it.  I certainly do not judge you.

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