No easy way to tell a genuinely divine message BBQB III

The comments on the prior post lead to an interesting question. Does every personal leading reflect a leading or opening from the Spirit of Christ?  


If this is answered, " yes" then how do we account for the various times in our lives when we see or read about people making outlandish or destructive statements which they attribute to the inspiration of the spirit of God?   To make it more personal, how many times do we feel we think we are expressing the Spirit of Christ when we later see how our own personal interests, our family or community, or our emotional and mental confusion influenced our ability to be led by the Spirit of Christ.   And what accounts for the many disagreements within the Quaker community involving experienced elders that have led or may lead Quakers to believe they are unable to fulfill their calling as Quakers without separate organizations?


If this question is answered, "no" then how can we encourage anyone to be guided by the Spirit of Christ.  Fox and other early Quakers addressed this question frequently, and I am sure we see Friends demonstrating the negative results that occur when this question is not addressed.
Some people quote modern writers who have no connection to Christianity or early Quaker thought and ask us to believe their statements to be true and or inspired with no need for further evidence to tie it in to a Quaker discussion.  Therefore no test of what is helpful or harmful, what is true or false, what is consistent with the movement of the spirit in the past is necessary.

 
Anyone, who claims they are inspired and will describe what is true and false in each religious movement because they are prophets and speaks the word of the spirit to everyone else, will be questioned by any able minded person.  A person from a religious point of view that did not acknowledge the self proclaimed prophet's assessment of their religion would be excluded from the community of the enlightened.  In times of self absorption, each wishes that we are the lord's prophet whose utterance is unquestioned, but we know from experience we all are not.  
Because someone is egotistical enough to try to convince people they can create a sound foundation for their house by picking grains of sand from the various religions of the world, they will not be exempt from the consequence of such behavior.  Matt 7:26  Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn't do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."     WEB


The early Quakers knew not every spirit was an honest and helpful spirit.  Fox wrote an article entitled "Word Of Admonition To Such As Wander From The Anointing And Teaching Within, And From The Father And The Son" In Works of George Fox(Volume 6) First he recognized that people do wander from the truth.
    "And the gospel of salvation being preached to every creature under heaven, which gospel ‘is the power of God to salvation, to every one that believes,' doth establish men; but all they that have wandered from the gospel, they have wandered from the power of God, which should save them, and that in which they should be established, and should bring life and immortality to light in them; and such remain in darkness, and do not know whither they go or wander."


    Next he identifies two ways this can happen.  "And the apostle did prove that Jesus was Christ, by Moses and the prophets; and when he had proved this to the Jews, that had Moses, and the prophets, and the promises, that prophesied of Christ; and when that Christ was come, according to the promises, and according to Moses and the prophets, and proved and manifested himself to be the Christ by signs and miracles, and then after the Jews had crucified him, and he died, and was buried, and rose again, and ascended, is set at the right hand of God, (according to the scripture,) and when many believed in Christ Jesus, then the apostles bid them ‘prove themselves whether they were in the true faith, (to wit, that true faith which Jesus Christ was the author and finisher of,) and try, and prove, and know themselves how that Jesus Christ was in them, except they were reprobates.' So here the first proof was, to prove by the scriptures of Moses and the prophets, and the promises, and the figures, types, and shadows, that Jesus was the Christ, and the substance of them, both to the Jews, and the world.


    And the second proof was, that when christianity was spread abroad, and many did believe in Christ Jesus, the apostle bids the Christians 'try themselves, and prove and know themselves, if that Christ Jesus was not in them, they were reprobates;' and he that had not the spirit of God, he had not life, and he that had not the spirit of Christ, he was none of his, and none can call Jesus Lord but by the holy ghost. So all the true christians must have the same holy ghost and Christ in them that the apostles had, if they truly call Jesus Lord and master, and are his, for the wicked Jews and Judas could call Jesus Lord or master, but it was by the unclean ghost.
    Now what is the matter that all people in the world, that profess God, are not the sons of God? The reason Christ and the apostle tells you, because that they do not receive Christ, and are not led by the spirit of God, but rebel against it, and are led by the devil, the spirit of that wicked one;"


Hugh Barbour set out what he saw in early Quaker life from his perspective in Quakers in Puritan England (1964) Five Tests for Discerning A True Leading and this part was reproduced as a tract by http://www.tractassociation.org/tracts/tests-discerning-true-leading/
Barbour recognizes a need for tests of personal inspiration by stating: "Early Friends faced the daily job of recognizing the true from the subjective when they were led to speech and action. From Jeremiah's time to the present, men have known no absolute or easy way to tell a genuinely divine message from wishful impulses and false prophecy.
The problem was made urgent for the Quakers because they were regularly labeled by men of their time as ‘Ranters.‘"

After further discussion, he included a paragraph on each of the five tests.  1. Moral Purity.  2.  Patience.  3. Consistency with others.  4. Consistency with the Bible.  and  5.  Inward unity.


Fox writes in the above article that two tests are related. One is the truths in Scripture showing what Christianity is and where it comes from, and the other is the application of those truths to our own lives.  The reason Fox places his primary emphasis on the second test was because the first was seldom a problem.  Most believed the facts, but few resisted the influence of organized religion in obscuring the application of the facts to the life of the individual and to the assembly of Christians thereby hiding an essential teaching and distorting scripture.   With a more complete scriptural approach, early Quakers built a solid foundation by including a Biblical basis for their beliefs.  The above is evidence of two planks of which it was constructed.  

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Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 7, 2012 at 12:12am

There is no easy test -- because what you want to "test" for is whether God is in fact giving someone a specific message -- and only God can make it possible to know.

You will know -- if it is happening. Can you make mistakes in reception & interpretation? Of course; this is what "being human" means. But if you continue to seek God's ongoing correction and clarification, that will not be denied.

What you don't get is a way to do this without God's help. Not from any man, document, any number of authoritative official guarantees that "This one is the real Revelation, honest!" Because it is God's presence (in your attention and intention) that any real authority will tell you to seek. Because entering into that is what it means to be in the Kingdom.

Comment by James C Schultz on 12th mo. 12, 2012 at 11:50pm

I think this omits one possible exception.  I believe some people have a gift of prophecy and I think those people, in general, know a genuine prophecy when they hear it.  I think Paul speaks to this in 1 Cor. 14:9.  It's important to note that not all prophetic utterances foretell future events or are intended to.   Some are exhortations of encouragement and some are warnings which if heeded shorten or avoid consequences of conduct that would naturally flow from the conduct and are not "acts of divine retribution".  But its important to understand that spiritual gifts are best judged by spirtually gifted people and not subjected to intellectual analysis.  Paul writes of this again as follows:

1Co 2:13

  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14

  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15

  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 13, 2012 at 11:49am

I knew someone once who did have that prophetic gift/task rather strongly.

Aside from personal impressions, which I was somewhat sceptical of at the time ("Should I believe this guy? -- Is this inspiration 'Divine' or something else?") what finally settled the matter, for me....

When I was asking him about what it was that he "did", he said it was a matter of continually "listening." And toward the end of our acquaintance, he was more and more responding to my questions with: "What does God in you tell you about that?"

Comment by James C Schultz on 12th mo. 13, 2012 at 1:50pm

I think that's the key Forest, listening with our spirits rather than thinking with our minds.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 1st mo. 8, 2013 at 10:20pm

Prophecy is not 'something special about a prophet' but 'something about God': that God is available to those seeking help and understanding.

"Words" from God are usually not verbal statements or commands, but events, insights, feelings -- often that sense of either confirmation or unease about some thought or action. Such "words" can be difficult to recognize and occasionally bewildering. Just as with scriptures there's often effort needed for interpretation -- as we ought to expect, as limited beings trying to follow the thoughts of a Mind beyond ours.

Certainly there's a trade-off, for human beings making decisions, between patience and timely response -- but in responding to a word of God, what's called-for is trust that one will receive the needed guidance to recognize when to move quickly, when to wait.

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