Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 22, 2015 at 8:59pm

It's that "nothing more" that disturbs me about your smooth bite-sized formulations, unless you are using "Love" and "Light" as literal names of God here...

Yes, atheists can certainly value, appreciate, strive mightily to further various forms of goodness. But God disagrees with them about whether this is a Godless universe, and ought to know. Love is nice, but desires to benefit its objects; and thus would prove quite futile without power to help them.

Comment by Howard Brod on 11th mo. 22, 2015 at 9:33pm

I am using 'Love and Light' as a reality that is beyond the label 'God'.  Call it what pleases you, my Friend.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 22, 2015 at 11:49pm

The "label 'God'" is merely a label. But in common usage, the word for the reality 'beyond the label' is "God". Other words, whomever they do or don't please -- leave the impression that someone is shying away from the operative question: Is this a reality you can walk on? -- Or just a good feeling?

The gospel is that 'Love' and 'Light' are also 'Power' -- That is,  that we are describing something with that label that has power within and beyond the physical universe, and uses it with wise and loving intention. Else love would be a very sad condition.

People do still love and hope without that knowledge; loving and hoping seem to be built-in human tendencies. But there's a big difference, whether we know or lack the realization that life has a firm and trustworthy foundation.

Something I heard once from a man studying the Psalms in Hebrew: Their word for 'truth' was not about logical truth in the Greek sense; when they'd say "God is true" they meant "dependable." If you built your house on Him it would stand.

Comment by Howard Brod on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 8:18am

Actually, "the word for the reality 'beyond the label' of God'" is many.  Some use the expression "Universe", or "Spirit", or "Light" or "Love" to connote the force that knits the fabric of life in bonds of love, compassion, and forgiveness. I am sure there are other labels that people prefer as well.

To require others to use the label we prefer is to establish a doctrine as a requirement for unity in the Spirit.  I personally find it petty and divisive.  We all know what that unity feels like; we can experience it.  We can also see its manifestation.  "Love and Light" (capitalized) seems to generically express it well, to me.  There are two so-named Atheists in my meeting who more manifest the qualities of "God" than others in the meeting (including ME).  They have made personal sacrifices to live the teachings that Jesus advocated as essential to experience "the Kingdom of God".  I for one see what I call "God" in full measure within them.  And I am unconcerned that they choose never to use the "God" word.  They are an example of 'God in action'! 

For some very spiritual people, using the "God" word brings up a connotation of the God represented throughout the Bible - a somewhat tribal entity that has human ego qualities.  They do not experience that as the reality they experience as the force that knits all of creation in the Universe and beyond, together.

I choose to use words that excludes no one from that experience of Light and Love.  I would venture that if Jesus were alive on Earth today, he would feel similarly.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 8:43am

 There is self evident being/Being. The self-evidence is experienced directly in the conscious and conscience. The power of this inwardly experienced self-evident Presence in the conscious and conscience is a new ecos, a new ecology of Being. In this new habitation of self-evident Presence, we live and move and exist. In this new ecos of self-evident Light and Love in the conscious and conscience we enter the house of God, heaven, permeating and breathing throughout the earth is all circumstances and in all events and we (in our conscious and conscience) are the habitat of self-evident Presence and self-evident Presence is our habitat. Our original confidence and hope holds firm in a conscious anchored in and a conscience informed by self-evident Presence itself (Hebrews Ch. 3). In this self-evident, unmediated, unconditioned, Presence we are not established in nor do we take up residence in the outward represented words of Jesus reflected in the lines of scripture. We reside in the Word directly evidenced in our conscious and conscience. There is where we self-evidently experience blessed are the Peacemakers. 

We do not have to look to the outward lines or representations of others for evidence or lack of evidence. Our confidence is in our direct experience, our self-evident experience, of Presence itself and that is our habitation and our proof. 

Comment by James C Schultz on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 8:50am

I'm a liberal Quaker right next door to you in Islip NY and I have never seen any proof that Jesus didn't say those words.  The Bible has changed millions of lives for the good as have those words.  I hear people say negative things about the bible all the time but some people are just like that.  It's not my job to convince them what to believe that's the Holy Spirit's job.  I just know I'm a better person now than I was before the Bible, including the Sermon on the Mount, started being used by the Christ within to lead me into the Light.  It's how you walk not how you talk and that works for Conservative Quakers as well s Liberal Quakers.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 9:08am

This morning I was thinking of one time I was giving a message; this was a thought that had suddenly struck out of a virtual coma; but I was immediately on my feet knowing I should share it, and that the word I was to use was "Love."

There was a woman visiting from another Meeting; and it was years later that I found out that she (of all the people there) remembered that message -- and that the effect on her life was something I hadn't imagined, expected, even thought of. In my normal usage I will refer to God in a great many ways. But to say that words don't matter? Does "collateral damage" mean "Those monsters flew in and butchered my wedding party?" Not really.

The word "God" has been misused as badly as the word "love"; and with equally evil results. But insisting on a euphemism leaves people imagining a helpless, "Oh Gosh!" ersatz deity.

That word 'gospel'; the original Greek equivalent was a proclamation that a new Caesar was now in charge.

I can say that God is in charge of this universe, and is loving beyond human imagination... but God remains frightening to many because that love gets implemented in ways we can't predict, but can imagine all too well. Our life's experience is how we come to know God; but God is not "an experience".

The specifically Christian message in the death of Jesus was that God refrained from protecting him by divine force and violence; that that is not the way God rules the world or manifests divine power. God's power was manifest in restoring him to life. Is that "divisive" language? -- or what actually happened?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 10:03am

"Our life experience is how we come to know God; but God is not "an experience." 

Hi Forrest. How do you know God is not "an experience" if your life experience is that God is not "an experience."

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 11:10am

My experience of remembering my life & the kinds of things that have happened in it tells me unmistakably that God is beyond any mere experience I've had or could imagine.

The fact that I continue to experience -- to experience anything whatsoever -- tells me that what I do know and recognize as "God" is not illusory.

That is, I can be mistaken. I am not mistaken as to the nature of What/Who exists to make even being-mistaken possible.

Comment by Howard Brod on 11th mo. 23, 2015 at 11:24am

I think, Forrest, you are reminding me that words can be 'tricky' for all of us.  And I think it likely best not to pass judgment on the words people choose to use to express their deepest feelings and experiences.  Labels can be especially misleading.

I know experientially from reading your many fascinating posts that enlighten and delight so many, that you are a child of Truth and a fine representative of 'God at work'.  This wonderful Force - about us and available to us - is so loving, awesome, and yes mysterious that we can never hope to capture her/his essence in any word or phrase.  In the Bible, he himself is quoted as saying "I am" when asked who he is.

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