Comment by Caroline Gulian on 7th mo. 21, 2012 at 10:19am

In NY they give you the option to affirm.  I have only been called for grand jury duty, which is very long and laborious, and fortunately they let me 0ut of that.

Comment by Chris Beauchamp on 7th mo. 23, 2012 at 11:27am

Thank you Marianna and Caroline. 

Comment by Timothy on 7th mo. 23, 2012 at 4:02pm

I can only say this: "I solemnly attest and affirm to tell the truth." My wife and her eldest sister, as well as the Mennonite parochial school principal, had to appear before the court. It was some theft work at the school, which was locked and broken into. They had to be questioned and "sworn in," but interestingly the judge nor any other active person causing this procedure ever once had them lay a hand on the Bible, raise the hand, or pronounce the oath. Just, "Do you solemnly attest and affirm to tell the truth. . .etc"

When my wife was sent for, I asked if I could be seated in the rear of the building, which thing was granted me. I had to try hard not to laugh in court, because they asked my wife if she spoke English! (That is the only language she knoweth, and I only fragments of German or PA German.)

This was the only time in my life, and at the place in my Journey with God where I would not "Swear at all. . . but let your yea (yes) be yea and your nay (no) nay. For whatsoever is more than this cometh of the evil (or evil one)." I don't have any other happenings than this one.

I can understand what Friend Karen is meaning as well, why soil and pollute God's Gentle People's minds with their notions or on their behalf. . . I can relate, somewhat to thy statements, but cannot provide an answer straightway.

I have had only this one incident as to experience, and that was indirectly through my wife. Hope this is of some usefulness.

Timothy

Comment by Paula Deming on 7th mo. 23, 2012 at 7:49pm

Karen's pointed queries remind us that we are obligated to love our neighbors as ourselves. We don't get a pass. Being Quakers requires us to remember this commandment.

 

Judge not. Remember who Jesus hung out with.

Comment by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 24, 2012 at 6:20am

Paula:  Well put!

Comment by Chris Beauchamp on 7th mo. 24, 2012 at 10:59am

I always prefer to remember the one who betrayed Jesus with a kiss.  It was his friend as  I seem to remember.  It still . . . .happens  . . . .today.  

 

Comment by Paula Deming on 7th mo. 24, 2012 at 5:23pm

Dear Friends,

I believe we have gotten far afield from the original discussion about swearing and jury duty. I  have felt heavy-hearted about some of the posts here, and as a result I decided it was best to delete comments that were disparaging to specific Friends.

We are here to love one another, and to learn from one another. Sometimes we are faced by unpleasant truths about ourselves, and my experience is that we sometimes have periods of growth in the Spirit as a result. But I feel that we must be mindful about offering ministry out of love, lifting each other up and treating each other with gentleness, even when we feel anything but gentle and loving. Name calling has no place within our Religious Society. Whatever we do to the least among us, we do to God.

Yours in Faith and Love, Paula

Comment by Timothy on 7th mo. 24, 2012 at 6:58pm

"Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways; Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find In deeper rev'rence praise." John Greenleaf Whittier, Quaker Poet: 1807—1892.

"And let the Peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of God dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him." (Colossians 3: 15—17)

Peace be to ye all.

Timothy

Comment by Howard Brod on 7th mo. 26, 2012 at 11:02pm

Ok. I must be a bad Quaker. Or at least not as good of a one as y'all (please pardon my southern accent). There are so many things that I, and likely most other Quakers, don't take literally in the Bible, that for the life of me, I can't understand why this "swearing to tell the truth thing" is something so many of us Quakers refuse to do. Jesus said, "let your yes be yes and your no be no" (I think it was Jesus). That's certainly a very good thing to live by. But to be hung up on not swearing to tell the truth for situations as important as a court trial, does seem to be going a bit too far to me. And isn't sitting in judgement of somebody on a jury a bit more serious of a spiritual infraction, any way - what with the biblical injunction of not judging others? Jesus also said to keep doing the communion ritual he did at the Last Supper in remembrance of him. Yet we Quakers don't take those words as a literal requirement that we pass around bread and wine regularly. Instead, we concentrate on the importance of remembering the things Jesus stood for and the communion in Spirit we have with him.

I view it simply that these folks in the court don't know me from Adam and want assurance that I'll be honest. Seems reasonable to me, and I doubt I'll go to hell for abiding them. Don't we all sign all types of legal documents saying we are telling the truth, and what is the practical difference between "swearing" and "affirming"' anyway? They are both for the purpose of assuring the court that we will be honest. If you are consistent, you wouldn't "affirm" either because "you should be expected to always tell the truth".

This whole thing seems to me to be a peculiar Quaker oddity left over from centuries bygone. Perhaps it is also borne of a desire to be a bit of a rebel at least that's what it was for me when I was younger and routinely refused to swear that I was telling the truth).

Comment by Adria Gulizia on 7th mo. 27, 2012 at 9:32am

I just want to respond to Howard's comment about "judging" others. So, judgment has many different meanings, as I am sure you are aware. Judgment can mean: discernment, wisdom, good sense, condemnation, opinion, and more. When a judge, jury, parent or teacher has to judge a defendant, child or student, "judgment" is (or should be) most closely related to discernment. We have these rules or laws that our society or family or classroom has agreed are necessary. Did you break them? How severely? Were there extenuating circumstances? What is the appropriate punishment? Every parent does this and should do this - with love. Every teacher does this and should do this - with compassion. Every judge and jury does this and should do this - with a solemn sense of gravity and with justice tempered by mercy.

This process is worlds away from "judge not, lest ye be judged." That type of  "judgment" is condemnation and contempt. It is the judgment that allows us to say, " I am better than you. You are despicable, less than human. You deserve whatever you get, because you are rotten through and through and unworthy of my compassion." That type of judgment is what allows people to snicker at an overdosing drug addict on the train, or walk past an unconscious homeless person on the street.

God does not say that we should not know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, virtue and vice. Of course we should - but we should also show mercy to those whose feet have left the path of righteousness. Having a jury "sitting in judgment" doesn't even enter into it. (And if you're thinking about Jesus and the adulteress, remember that that was a jury the way a KKK lynch mob in 1940 Mississippi was a jury.)

As an aside, the reason you have to affirm and you can never justify not affirming based on religious reasons is that by affirming you acknowledge that you accept the penalty of perjury if you are not telling the truth. The court has to do that separately in order to give you notice of the consequences of lying. It would probably violate due process, a right every person has under the US Constitution, to not force someone to affirm and then toss him in jail for telling falsehoods.

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