Comment by Paula Deming on 1st mo. 1, 2012 at 6:45pm

Dear Carl,

I have always been grateful to you for your ministry, dear Ffriend. :)

I don't mind looking like something out of the ordinary, and will be content to suffer the looks of others as I did last time. The years have not lessened my memories of my last experience, nor the look on the attorney's face when I said, "Jesus said, 'swear not.' " It was the first time I had ever said anything like that in public. It has become much easier, as I have grown comfortable in daily picking up the cross.

Did you raise your hand, Carl?

 

Comment by Caroline Gulian on 1st mo. 1, 2012 at 7:53pm

I agree, Rich, in regards to >>>an unwillingness to arrogantly call upon God to vouch for my honesty <  Speaking the truth and telling a lie are a person's decision, a free will given to us.  If I decide to lie, I will not add shame to this by - essentially - making God a liar as well.

Comment by Caroline Gulian on 1st mo. 1, 2012 at 8:00pm

Paula, the bible is, unfortunately, still used in some US courts.  It is up to the judge.  Most do not, thankfully.  However, swearing in is indicative of using the bible, even if a bible or the word "God" is not used.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 1st mo. 1, 2012 at 9:11pm

And Fox, of course, asked to swear with his hand on the Bible, said ~'You want me to swear on the book that tells me not to swear?'

Comment by Carl D. Williams on 1st mo. 2, 2012 at 12:53pm

Well, Paula, you're too generous.

I don't raise my hand actually, though I had to think about it a bit. 

The harder time for me is when I'm teaching in a school where the pledge is said on a regular basis.  I consider that an oath also, though I know some Friends don't.  The conflict arises between myself choosing to stand outside the culture and the kiddos who I'm meant to model what it means to stand in the culture.  Argh!  But, fortunately, that is a different conversations!

Comment by Paula Deming on 1st mo. 2, 2012 at 2:46pm

The Pledge of Allegiance is most certainly an oath: one of my ancestors was written out of meeting for having taken an oath of loyalty during the Revolutionary War. I regularly attend meetings that include reciting the pledge. I stand, out of respect for others, but do not recite the pledge or put my hand on my heart. Nobody has ever asked me about it.

That is certainly a different setting from a school. Yet, when I was in jr. high, I had a teacher who insisted on the daily Pledge, and I resented it. I didn't have the confidence to speak out against the practice. If you were to confront the practice in your school, I wonder whether some of your students might be grateful. :)

Comment by Marianna Boncek on 1st mo. 3, 2012 at 2:40pm

I don't know if it is still this way today, but when I first became a teacher in Vermont and New York I had to swear to uphold the Constitution. I wrote a nice little letter to both states explaining why I don't swear and I would do my best to uphold the Constitution and they accepted this from me.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 1st mo. 9, 2012 at 4:40pm

Matthew 5.33 etc has it:

"Again, you have been told, 'Do not break your oath,' and 'Oaths sworn to the Lord must be kept.' But what I tell you is this: You are not to swear at all. Not by Heaven, for that is God's throne, nor by Earth, for that is His footstool, nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King, nor by your own head, because you cannot turn one hair of it white or black. Plain 'Yes' or 'No' is all you need to say; anything beyond that comes from the Devil."

Comment by Chris Beauchamp on 7th mo. 21, 2012 at 7:55am

I am glad to see this discussion.  I have concerns over Jury Duty too?  Why should I, a person who lives and leads a life of reverence, be made to listen for hours on end about the crimes and inapprpriate actions of others?  I don't want to hear or listen to that.  I don't want to fill my precious mind with that.   

 

I wouldn't tell a lie - - so also do not feel the need to swear an oath.  To those that lie and commit other crimes too - - why should we have to thrown in with them, to decide their fate?  I think if they want to destroy each other, then let them do it.   I do not want to be any part of it.   The sickness of a society should not be brought upon those who are not causing it. 

 

Thoughts, if you please?

 

Comment by Marianna Boncek on 7th mo. 21, 2012 at 9:34am

I have been asked to swear two times; one as a juror and one upon becoming a teacher. As you said, the juror one was easy. Friends are not the only religion that does not swear and the court easily accommodated me.  I have no problem serving on a jury. I feel I am doing my duty as a citizen and if I was ever accused, rightly or wrongly, I would hope that an open minded fair person would sit on my jury. (Actually, I hope 12 of them would!) Most people don't know that some states require teachers to swear and oath to uphold the constitution. I did not swear, just included a note that I don't swear based on my religion but I would do my best to uphold the constitution.  They accepted that answer and I have been teaching for 15 years now. 

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