Comment by Daniel Francis on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 8:56pm

I've known people who have seemed filled with the fire of the Spirit of God. People who seemed to exude a Light and a presence, an inward calm and and surety that seemed to suggest the presence of the spirit. And then, I've seen them live lives of megalomania. Seen them say things and do things and believe things that I can only describe as destructive and harmful. I suspect that Gurney was witness to such personages in his life as well.

God is not a method Forrest. But seeking direction solely from inner leading IS a method of discernment. And if you've seen those who, claiming to rely on this method, have brought harm to others based on this method, it gives a person pause. 

You say God serves to certify what kind of spirit we are exemplifying. But how does he do this? Is it not through the things we learn about who and what he is? And where do we get this information from? Personal leadings yes, but the Bible as well, and the writings of men and women who seem to lead certain kinds of lives, and the wisdom of our communities of faith, and the past leadings we've experienced. This is why God has given us these gifts, and you are correct, they ARE "ample means".   And we should value and use ALL of what God has given us.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 9:17pm

Dear Daniel,

To live in the Presence is to know through direct personal experience consciousness and conscience anchored in the Spirit. Living is the Presence is discernment. Many of us "learn about who or what he is" through direct unmediated experience within. Salvation is the experience of the Spirit illuminating our conscious and conscience so that we know eternity within. Certainly we will fall short, however, the blessing is experiencing eternal life and knowing it is always there even when we turn our gaze from it and when can always return. I've faith in the Presence personally experienced over outward scripture, beliefs, doctrine, institutions. 

Certainly, you are aware the words of your first paragraph can also reflect those whose faith is anchored in outward scriptures, doctrine, and institutions?

Comment by Forrest Curo on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 9:29pm

People who seem filled with fire may or may not be attuned to the Spirit who lives our lives.

Has anyone here suggested we should find someone on fire -- and then rather than reaching for a fire extinguisher, follow them according to how hot, how blue and steady a flame they put out?

Inwardly you feel how a person is, inwardly, and can react accordingly. You may encounter someone who's partially bonkers but still following a true leading... I have certainly known people like that. But it's your own leading you need to discern, via knowing the Spirit itself, yourself.

Look, the question is not whether anyone has ever claimed to be following God and brought harm to others, but whether you can follow God safely. Can you be mistaken, following God? Certainly. Are you open to correction while following? -- Then you can trust God to provide that.

You can't trust God to lead you with closed eyes; if you want to see you will leave your eyes open and God will help you find your way. This will guide you rightly, not because of who you are but because of who God is.

Comment by Barbara Smith on 2nd mo. 1, 2014 at 9:07am

Forrest wrote:

"But it's your own leading you need to discern, via knowing the Spirit itself, yourself.

Look, the question is not whether anyone has ever claimed to be following God and brought harm to others, but whether you can follow God safely. Can you be mistaken, following God? Certainly. Are you open to correction while following? -- Then you can trust God to provide that."

I find this very true. It takes time and practise to discern your own leadings and no one can do that learning process for you. God helps you all the way. When you have felt the Spirit there is no mistaking it for something else, but it is easy to take all kinds of other feelings, thoughts, circumstances etc. for true leadings and still be wrong! Then you do a course correction and keep on learning.

In our culture today, however, there is a strong suspicion of all things spiritual and a tendency to hold up rational thinking as the only way to TRULY see reality. So we give greater weight to what people have learned through a rational process (and don't often question that) and are very skeptical if they say they learned something from direct revelation. This is a phenomenon of our age of reason and was not always the case (like in the 17th Century).

An example of this skepticism is in connection with clairvoyants. If you believe that people can be clairvoyant, and and someone you know to be clairvoyant tells you something they learned through clairvoyance, you would not insist that they test against other methods (experience, the Bible truths, rational thinking) to "test" whether what they learned is Truth. I, at least, accept that there are those who can know things directly. This does not mean that there aren't those who think they are clairvoyant and aren't. In the same way there are those who said God told them to do something when He didn't. But for those who can experience the Spirit directly and discern and learn from Him no other test is needed.

Now that I recognize the Spirit working in/on me it is as unmistakable as recognizing my husband or my children. That is not to say I always understand what I am supposed to do or learn.  But we should acknowledge that direct leadings when correctly discerned do not need to be tested or verified.

This brings me slightly off-topic to "clearness committees" which are a favorite vehicle of discernment in liberal meetings. I did not know till recently that originally the only use of such committees was to see to it that a couple who were interested in marrying were "clear" of other obligations, parental objections, etc. and were free to marry. Conservative Friends, at least in OYM, do not have any other mention of "clearness committees" in their discipline. Conservatives are more likely to use prayer, the Bible and God to help with clearness on a leading rather than a committee of Friends. Interesting.

Barb

Comment by Keith Saylor on 2nd mo. 2, 2014 at 1:00am

Dear Daniel,

It came strong upon me this morning to share some Isaac Penington with you, because his experience and testimony is cordial and shared by many today, including myself. I am mindful of a deeply edifying passage wherein Penington writes in affirmation of conscious and conscience free of outward forms:

I have smarted deeply for these things, and have been taught by the briars and thorns of the wilderness, whereby my ears came to be opened, to hear the sound of the everlasting gospel, to which they were before through ignorance stopped. For I also did believe and expect great things in a church-state and way of worship; and in simplicity of heart did I enter into it, and walk in it, and was not without knowledge, warmth, and experiences there. But all this the Lord broke down by a strong hand, in one moment; and hath taught me since to throw away all my gains here, and elsewhere, and to count them but dross and dung, for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord. And having tasted, having seen, having felt, having handled, I cannot but commend the life ; and dissuade all men from all knowledge, all worship, all religion, all ways, and practices (though ever so taking, pleasant, and promising), out of the life. And this is to know Christ; namely, to know the life: and this is to obey Christ, to obey the life: and this is the kingdom of Christ which is to come, to have the life reign in power and great glory. But the knowing or believing of a history concerning Christ, this is not the knowledge or the faith: antichrist all along the apostasy, in all his various forms and dresses, hath known and believed thus: and this kind of knowledge must pass away, further  than it can find a place and service in the life. Be not angry at my testimony; it flows from pure love, and comes forth in great good-will to your souls. 

Click on the link to read even more, along with the citations.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XPUQTCPEvmOabm4jd67eD6bx1HReBmd...

In another place he writes:

Quest. How is man converted?

Ans. By the operation of the light and power of God upon his conscience.

Quest. In what condition is the conscience before God works upon it?

Ana. Hard and corrupt; hardened by selfish reasonings and dark imaginations, against the convictions of the light and operations of the power of God, and corrupted with the sin and iniquity that dwell in it.

Quest. What doth God make it in his working upon it?

Ans. Gentle and tender, tit to receive the impressions of his Spirit. By the influence and power of his Spirit on the conscience, he openeth the ear to hearken to his voice, and prepareth the heart to follow him in his leadings.

Quest. How doth God carry on his work in the converted soul?

Ans. By keeping it low and tender, out of the self-wisdom and hardening reasonings of the human understanding: by this means he keeps it pliable to the light and power of his Spirit.

Quest. Is only the tender conscience then fit to be wrought upon by God?

Ans. Yea, indeed, that alone. The heart that is hard is inconsiderate of the voice of God, and stiff and stubborn it against it; having ever nt hand some wisdom or will of the flesh, to withstand the voice and leadings of God by.

Quest. Who is it that preserves the conscience tender?

Ans. The Lord of the conscience. He who made it knoweth the proper temper of it; and his light and power is alone able to preserve it in that tenderness which he formed it in.

Quest. What is it that hardens the conscience?

Aus. The wisdom of the flesh. Man, having gained a wisdom out of the light of God, by the imaginations, reasonings, and strength thereof, hardens himself against God. 

Read more here, along with the citations.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cgm_-xncrum3bDGUc-xER_8lwEQZjMI...

Faith in the sufficiency of consciousness and conscience filled with the inner Light and informed and guided by the Presence alone through inner quiet, is the foundation of the early Quaker testimony and is the foundation of many folk's testimonies today.

In the first quote above Penington does not equivocate and obfuscate;  he affirmed and admonishes:

I cannot but commend the life; and dissuade all men from all knowledge, all worship, all religion, all ways, and practices (though ever so taking, pleasant, and promising), out of the life.

 

He has clearly and unambiguously turned from the outward forms and practices of the "church-state." 

I too, along with many others today, affirm the sufficiency of the Life in the conscious and conscience guiding the individual to the Living Gospel (known through personal experience as opposed to reading about it) and salvation.

Comment by Daniel Francis on 2nd mo. 2, 2014 at 6:12pm

I hear what Isaac Pennington has to say and agree with him for the most part. But it of course gives rise to this question : whi is "Christ"?

Isaac would have had an answer to that question. But it would have been based on........what?

Only inner leadings? A feeling that he had , even a powerful one?

Or would it have been based on a story, told over and over through the centuries? A story written on parchment and paper, in codexes and scrolls and books by people of old who had AUTHORITY, teaching others to memorize and recite the ancient tale.  That is to say a knowledge that is preserved and passed on through "outward scriptures, doctrine, and institutions".

I have found it slightly ironic Keith, that there is such a resistance by  to recognize and acknowledge the necessity of checks in our faith beyond inner leadings, when they could not BE Quaker without relying on such.

For instance, to quote Pennington and Fox on the inner life is to rely on their insights and leadings, as much as our own.  Their ideas about what the spiritual life entails is held in very high esteem by most Quakers.

And our Quaker "institutions" preserve this knowledge for generations to come and looks back to it for guidance. Why should you or I use these at all, if their is no real need for them, only ones "immediate" leadings from the Spirit?

To follow the Way of Christ, you must have a knowledge of Him. You must know what Christ means,who Christ IS, and some notion of what Christ's way is about. You must have a concept of what good is and what evil is. What love SHOULD look like when it is exemplified, and what it shouldn't. In other words, we need "foundational knowledge"  as we enter onto the life of the Spirit.  

Throughout the records of the early Church ( the "primitive Christianity" that Quakerism is supposed to represent) one sees a constant tension between a life lived solely by inner leading, and one lived by accession to rules. Throughout the Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the epistles the early followers of Christ rely on their inner experience to refute aspects of the Law of Moses (one of the checks of the early church), and then affirm other aspects of this same Law  in other circumstances. And in the constant back and forth, new institutions were established, and new checks were found. These in turn were then challenged by others convicted that the Spirit called for the new institutions  to be  transformed, and sometimes superseded, in favor of  even more new light. 

I believe that this shows that if Quakers wish to truly exemplify that which God brought into existence in the life and work of Christ and his first followers, we must have both Personal experience of the Spirit of Christ AND  narratives, standards and institutions by which we discern the Spirit at work in our own lives and in the wider Society.  Your posts demonstrate, Keith, that the Religious Society of  Friends is as much a part of this process now as those that came before. 

Comment by Forrest Curo on 2nd mo. 3, 2014 at 12:06am

Direct acquaintance with God was available to Adam. That's not to say that any such person existed, but that God could certainly create such a situation and bring a person up within it -- The point is: That in itself, didn't suffice and wouldn't suffice. Instead we have the world we in fact inhabit, in which people start out being taught to rely on external sources of information and guidance -- but learn over the years, from a mixture of what we hear and read and experience directly, that God is real and available to  help us find our way amid all these influences.

Certain legends, belatedly written down, that some misconstrue as "records" -- are certainly a part of the created world that God has provided for our development. I have certainly found them a source of essential spiritual nourishment. But they are not the basis for our discernment:

They point us very emphatically to God within us as the guide we need to follow. They also suggest that this has not at all been an easy lesson for human beings to learn or to practice; they depict people repeatedly seeking to have God communicate with us through institutional arrangements, and while God has proved willing and able to use these for human betterment, people show an inexorable tendency to put more trust in the organizations, writings, etc than in Gods' direct presence.

And that, naturally enough, brings us repeatedly to needless grief.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 2nd mo. 3, 2014 at 10:48am

"Legends" -- "stories based on fact and written down long after the fact.

If we were meant to be subject to the authority of any writings, it was surely within God's power to leave us an authenticated Gospel According to Jesus. But from the use we've made so far of the writings we do have, the absence of any such gospel is yet another sign of God's loving wisdom.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 2nd mo. 4, 2014 at 10:16am

Dear Daniel,

Your words are a blessing for they nurture the Light and Life within my consciousness and conscience so that I may write these words to you in the full power of the eternal Presence within me. To be challenged is to be strengthened.

At the outset, I feel compelled to make clear that I came to George Fox and Isaac Penington after experiencing presence in the Presence. I was prompted to read them by a Baptist minister who suggested my witness “so closely matches their witness.” I enter into fellowship with the early Quaker writers when reading them. I know that of which they speak through personal experience. They are fellows in the Spirit.

I do not feel quoting Fox or Penington is helpful any longer in our particular discussion. You asked: What is Christ? Is the answer only based on inner leadings or feelings? I will address your questions by the power and strength of the Presence within my consciousness and conscience; not using Fox or Penington as support.

Christ is the Presence affirming in the individual, through direct experience, their eternal life. The presence of Christ within the consciousness and conscience of the individual becomes the anchor for the self-conscious ego so that consciousness is no longer based the the abstract thoughts, feelings, or the five senses. In Christ, the individuals experience the truth of self-consciousness sustained after the body no longer functions. The truth is not mediated through ideas, thoughts, scripture, etc. It is immediate and direct experience and knowledge in the presence of the Spirit.

Christ is within me and I in Christ. In Christ ... I am. Christ is not a feeling or a leading ... Christ is direct personal experience.

As to outward doctrine and scripture. If all theology, doctrine, and even the outward scripture were lost today. I affirm to you that Christ would be present within human being. Christ is not defined by outward doctrine and scripture. Consciousness and conscience illuminated by the Eternal Life is free from outward doctrine, scripture, and institutions.

The Presence within is that through which all outward doctrine and institutions came. These doctrines and institutions are hardened Presence ... mere reflections ... they lose their power in direct, immediate, and personal experience of the Presence of Christ.

By Christ within, Faith is Present. Faith is active. The Presence within is my guide, my teacher, my strengthen, my savior, that to which I turn when I fail. It is such a blessing to BE in the Presence, unmediated; to know the Truth through personal experience rather than borrowed truth through reflections of others.

In deep thanksgiving and love,

Keith

Comment by Daniel Francis on 2nd mo. 4, 2014 at 4:03pm

"Christ is the Presence affirming in the individual, through direct experience, their eternal life".

What is our"Eternal Life"? Is it our continued existence? Our breathing in and out?

What does it ask of us? What does it require of us? What does it empower us to believe and do? What does our Eternal life restrict us from doing?

To what must we say NO because of this eternal life? I find your description of Christ to be eloquent but ultimately abstract.

And "who" is Christ? Is Jesus? Are We? Is Christ a person? WAS Christ ever a person? Does it matter? SHOULD it matter?

And what does "Christ" require of us?

 

I think the last point, again, is the question which Gurney wrestled with the most, and is the question that I also find to be so compelling and important. It has been historically very easy for people too claim the leading of the Holy Spirit, Christ, etc. to do evil. And this is what compels people like Gurney and many others to look for those checks I mentioned.  The irony being that, hardly perfect people, we always are partially wrong on the standards we establish, which later need to be reformed.  But  think that this process is best, that it is one of the main methods that  God has used to communicate her will and enhance our development throughout our human existence.

 

I also think that we should embrace it, instead of trying our best this undermine or denigrate this process, which is what I read when I hear the contempt for "theology", "doctrines" and scripture" (which is, in another set of irony, as dogmatic as any fundamentalist creed).

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