Comment by Barbara Smith on 12th mo. 12, 2013 at 5:56pm

Friends - I had an analogy that i have thought of before. Maybe someone will appreciate it. I experience that there are two realities that we find ourselves in. one is our worldy existence where we are relying on our own thoughts, intelligence, responses, etc. This existence is full of worry, cares, intentions, efforts etc. There is a parallel world that we can shift to where we are accessing the Spirit, the Guide. There "things take their proper place" as Forrest said. Life there, in the Stream, is NOT a struggle, NOT an effort, NOT based on our own intelligence, our own efforts etc. Living in that Stream is like lifting your head up and seeing the sunset when you have been trudging along looking at the ground all that time! The sunset was always there as we trudged along - we just didn't figure out how to look UP!

My analogy is crawling and walking. it would be as if someone had not yet figured out how to walk upright and was still crawling. they had read the amazing experiences of people walking, and they fully believed that walking was possible, and in fact God's will for us, and they went around telling everyone about walking, but they themselves were still crawling! No matter how much we talk ABOUT walking it is not the same as actually walking ourselves. So, talking about, and reading about (as in Scripture) people experiencing the Spirit, if we ourselves have not personally experienced God INSIDE of us, then we have nothing to say. As George Fox challenged: "What canst thou say?"

Thanks for indulging my analogies.

Barb

Comment by Lee Nichols on 12th mo. 13, 2013 at 11:19am

Keith,  It is good to see that you are working to find answers for your questions and not just talking carelessly like many others do.  These issues continue to be a concern periodically and I was reminded of another web discussion on this topic awhile ago. All that follows was my reply to one who thought emphasizing Scripture and early Quaker doctrine would be harmful to me.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate your time and effort to continue the discussion.
It does take time to understand each other's position, and I find it impossible to describe much of what I am thinking in one note. I would like to start with some of the points in your note that I own and affirm.  Here are some of them. "Some of the people I know who are most knowledgeable about early Quaker beliefs are very unsuccessful Christians (in my opinion)....Some of the people I know who are least knowledgeable are people who have deep loving Christian ... hearts. .... But listen to the people in the benches around you at meeting, too... they are ... important witnesses. And remember, unless the Baptism has renewed you within, no one's witness (dead or alive) will make any difference to your own heart. ..... I want to live out my relationship with God today. .... I want to lead them to a genuine Life in God. .... The world needs to know that God is here. Now. The world needs to know that God can tell them what to do, and can give them the power to do it. Now. But don't forget to talk about your own changed lives and your own miracles and your own Fire. You are the Light of the world ....show them your own Fire.  

If you were here in conversation, I might ask, "did you think I didn't believeth this?" and if you thought I didn't I would ask, "what was it that I said that made you think that?" There are points in your note that I don't affirm or at least I don't affirm the emphasis that you seem to put on them. Also I don't think it is the emphasis of the early Quakers. This includes too little emphasis on learning, on the importance of teaching Scripture and on the use of early Quaker writing when defining central Quaker teaching.  I see you quoted Fox in explaining your position.  I suggest that a wider understanding of Fox's position may show that this complements but does not discount an emphasis on learning or Scripture or dependence on Christ. It is obvious that Fox teaches the importance of the presence of the Spirit of Christ in our lives, but I do not think he does this at the expense of general Christian doctrine or the nominative teaching of Scripture. I would like to, in the measure of the Spirit Christ gives me, discuss this. It is not organized as well as I would like, but I hope it is a useful contribution to the on going conversation.  

Why is it important to do more than just affirm that God speaks directly to each person? Because this belief is found in most Christian organizations from Catholic to Reformed to Anabaptist to Pentecostal to Quaker. Unmediated revelation of God does not by itself distinguish Quakers from the majority of Christian organizations.  Also it is a belief that is found in non-Christian groups and has been put to uses that are incompatible with the Christian faith as held by most Christians and by the early Quaker community. Some individuals have lost their way and experienced troubles because they ignored the history of Christianity and their particular organization and by ignoring the teaching of Scripture. I am sure we all know a few situations like this. It is also true some people have lost their way because they did not experience the living presence of Christ in their lives and did not develop habits of communing with the Spirit and did not learn to discriminate the leading of the Spirit from the other "spirits" that interact with us.

So what is the advantage of learning more about the teaching and practice of the early Quakers and of Scripture. A question that occurs to me is why not do it? Such behavior does not take away from the emphasis on the life of the Spiritual presence of Christ. As a matter of fact it strengthens it.  There are advantages to emphasizing early Quaker beliefs and practices and Scripture. It is to avoid adopting a shallow and common sense (do we agree that there is more common than sense in common sense) approach to our faith and our faith community. It helps keep a healthy perspective when individuals and groups try to appropriate Fox et.al. by taking little pieces of Quaker teaching and using it as a cover for their own quite different teaching.  We study Quaker history because it allows us with the Spirit's guidance to see the struggles and effort, along with the mistakes, that went into forming a group and an organization that was focused on the New Covenant, which is the Spirit in our hearts writing his laws and being a counselor, guide and king.  We study Scripture because Christ wants us to know how he carried out His plan to save us.  We study Scripture because we get to know what improves our relation with Christ and what improves our daily walk in the Spirit of Christ.

Jesus told us that the way other people are to learn God's way for us to be saved is for us to tell them. Christ says we are to tell each other and tell those who don't know Christ. Tell them the story of God's action in history and his plan for the future which are found in Scripture.  Are we really in a position to disregard Christ's plan to have this message communicated in human voice just because we know the message is not absolutely necessary to interact with Christ?  Also some contemporary Quaker publishers of truth have not found people receptive to the modern Quaker message which discounts its connection with the Bible, but have found a successful ministry by bringing their message inside an organization that already includes study of scripture and the proclamation of salvation in Christ.  There is no evidence that I know of where anyone has learned the plan of God in Christ including redemption and the New Covenant in Christ except through the words of another human being. Acts Chapter 10 is one illustration of God depending on a person to lead a group into a Spiritual communion with him. Cornelius was a good man approved of by God, and he received a greater blessing by knowing about and believing in Christ.

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." Acts 10:1-6 (NKJV)

We need to move outside the few quotes that get most of the attention in modern writing and  look at some quotes from Fox that don't get mentioned very often. Yet they are also the core of Quaker teaching.  Here are three such examples.

Concerning Exhortation And Admonition --And the apostle saith to Timothy, 'Give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine; neglect not the gift that is in thee;' and bid Timothy, teach and exhort, and to be an example to the believers in word, conversation, faith, charity, and purity. 1 Tim. ii. 4.6.And the apostle exhorts Timothy, 'Preach the word in season, and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but turn their ears away from the truth, and heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.'And therefore ye see the church's authority to exhort, rebuke, and reprove such. Tim. ii. 4.

Trying of Spirits in our age now, as in the Apostles' days, by the Spirit of Christ the Anointing within. Fox works vol 6 -- Dear friends, and brethren in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is your heavenly rock and foundation, and your holy sanctuary, your place of safety, who destroys the destroyer, and is our saviour, the chief bishop of your souls, to oversee you; and your great prophet that God hath 'raised up for you to hear in all things,' and the chief shepherd who hath 'laid down his life for his sheep;' who feeds his sheep with his heavenly food, and clothes them with his heavenly clothing, 'whom he hath bought with a price,' his blood; and that they might know his voice and follow him, 'who is from above,' and not of this world; whose voice is distinct from all the voices of this world, that are below; 'who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time;' who is the mediator between God and you; in whose name you have all salvation; in whose name, power, and authority, we meet that are  his followers; and he is before all things, and by him all things subsist; who hath delivered us from the power of darkness. And God hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son, and therefore 'whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by  him.

Concerning such as have forbidden preaching, or teaching in the name of Jesus, and such as are ashamed to confess Him before men, and call not on the name of the Lord, &c.-- The Jews and their priests said unto the apostles, and threatened them,'that ye speak henceforth to no man in this name' Jesus. Acts iv. 17. And they said again (in verse 18,) to the apostles, 'that they should not teach in the name of Jesus.' And in Acts v. 28. they again said, 'that they should not teach in the name of Jesus,' mark, not to teach in the name of Jesus. And in verse 40, they said again to the apostles, 'that they should not speak in the name of Jesus; mark, not so much as to speak in the name of Jesus. And yet the apostle said, 'With the heart man believeth, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. And if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.' Rom. x. 9, 10

In Christ, Lee

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 14, 2013 at 12:58am

Dear Lee,

While giving your words over to quiet, a pressing happened strong upon my conscience and consciousness expressing that " the power in teaching and preaching is through the immediate revelation and influence of the inner Spirit." Do you concur that teaching, preaching, exhortation, etc. are valid only if the speaker has waited upon and is experiencing the direct leading of the Holy Spirit at the moment of speaking? This is the first leading that has come to in inner silence upon reading your words, I am compelled to clear my conscious by asking this question before moving forward in our conversation. I would appreciate any response you may have as I hold this leading in the Light.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 15, 2013 at 1:19pm

A Story: by Keith F. Saylor - With an Afterword by Isaac Penington

There was a farmer who grew crops using artificial lighting and methods documented in a book he cherished. One day another farmer came to him and said that he does not use unnatural light but relies on the natural sun, in itself, to sustain and grow crops. The former responded by saying the sun certainly has its place, however, just look at how well his crops were growing under these artificial conditions and offered the latter his book and articles on unnatural growing methods. The latter graciously declined.

A time later, both men passed away. The crops tended by the man using artificial methods withered and died without the outward maintenance of his unnatural methods and apparatus. The crops tended by the latter grew and thrived in the light of the Sun that sustains Life needless of the artificials of men and women.

The Sun is sufficient.

“For I also did believe and expect great things in a church-state and way of worship; and in simplicity of heart did I enter into it, and walk in it, and was not without knowledge, warmth and experiences there. But all this the Lord broke down by a strong hand, in one moment ; and hath taught me since to throw away all my gains here, and elsewhere, and to count them but dross and dung, for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord. And having tasted, having seen, having felt, having handled, I cannot but commend the life ; and dissuade all men from all knowledge, all worship, all religion, all ways and practices (though ever so taking, pleasant, and promising) out of the life. And this is to know Christ ; namely, to know the life : and this is to obey Christ, to obey the life : and this is the kingdom of Christ which is to come, to have the life reign in power and great glory. But the knowing or believing of an history concerning Christ, this is not the knowledge or the faith: antichrist all along the apostasy, in all his various forms and dresses, hath known and believed thus: and this kind of knowledge must pass away further than it can find a place and service in the life. Be not angry at my testimony, it flows from pure love, and comes forth in great good will to your souls.”

----Isaac Penington, “The works of the long-mournful and sorely-distressed Isaac Penington ...” Volume 1, pg. 135

 

Comment by Barbara Smith on 12th mo. 15, 2013 at 3:05pm

Keith - Lovely story. And I especially liked this part of your Pennington quote:

 "And having tasted, having seen, having felt, having handled, I cannot but commend the life ; and dissuade all men from all knowledge, all worship, all religion, all ways and practices (though ever so taking, pleasant, and promising) out of the life. And this is to know Christ ; namely, to know the life."

Pennington is my favorite of the Early Friends I think, as his writing so vividly describes the FEELING and EXPERIENCE of the life of the Spirit. I started reading his writings soon after my own baptism of the Spirit and found my soul leaping with recognition as I read him. However, when I have read these same passages to others who have not experienced that baptism they do not have the same effect. This brings up the question: how do we speak of the Life and, as Pennington said, "dissuade all men from all knowledge, all worship, all religion, all ways and practises out of the life" when they have not yet FOUND the LIFE!? Do we sound arrogant and like we have the answer and they don't? Or do we continue to hold out the REALITY in front of them as the goal, and in Love, as Pennington said above, encourage them to keep on seeking till they find that LIFE and REALITY, knowing from experience that all else is a mere shadow of the Truth and in fact is harmful as it gives a false sense of having found Christ when in fact they haven't! Historically Christians were never timid about proclaiming the Truth and telling others boldly what they had discovered. I guess I need to feel that boldness even with others who think they have found it but are still grasping at the shadows.

May we sink deep into the arms of Christ and gain the strength from Him to know how and when to communicate this Truth.

Barb

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 15, 2013 at 3:22pm

Yes Barb. We keep admonishing the  Word ... the Eternal Life ... the Immediacy .... revealed within us by the power and movement of the inner Christ; staying above the abstractions and distraction of the "natural faculties." And I think we can do so, as you have done, without the demonization Wilbur often manifested and it pains me to admit George Fox also. It is ours to share in the immediacy of the Spirit in faithfulness. 

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 15, 2013 at 4:15pm

Dear Lee,

You asked a question, in your last post, that has captured me over these days:

“Are we really in a position to disregard Christ's plan to have this message communicated in human voice just because we know the message is not absolutely necessary to interact with Christ?”

Over and over this response manifests:

“Because of the immediacy, influence, and guidance of Christ within me, I am free to follow Christ’s guidance directly; communicating the Living Word through immediacy.”

I so appreciate your reference to the Cornelius. The story demonstrates the power of waiting upon divine guidance and acting in the immediacy of divine direction. I read the full chapter and was so edified by Peter going to the rooftop to pray and becoming hungry; and, while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance (silence), had a vision, and again immediate divine influence happened in the Lord speaking directly to him. He did not read scripture about the Lord speaking to him … he experienced the Lord directly. And he acted upon the immediate revelation. The understanding Cornelius and Peter came through direct revelation in God’s presence. Cornelius and Peter knew the immediacy of the presence of God and we can and do know it too in the same way as the did. Peter did not need scripture to direct him, he knew Christ directly, experimentally, experientially.

Also, your example of moving “outside the few quotes that get most of the attention in modern writing and  look at some quotes from Fox that don't get mentioned very often” in pointing to Fox’s “Concerning Exhortation And Admonition” particularly edified and nurtured me in the Spirit. Instead of the single paragraph you posted, I’ll  re-post the whole of Fox’s epistle here for the edification of all the readers:

“Concerning exhortation, Judas and Silas, &c. exhorted the brethren with many words, and comforted them. Acts xv. And the apostle con firmed the souls of the disciples, and exhorted them to continue in the faith, and that we must through many tribulations enter into the king dom of God; when he had ordained them elders in every church, &c. they commended them to the Lord, whom they believed. Acts xiv. So you may see here were elders ordained in every church ; and the aged women are commended as well as the men, as in Titus ii. And Barnabas exhorted the church of Antioch, yea, he exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. Acts ja.

And the brethren wrote, exhorting to receive Apollos, who when he was come into Achaiah, helped them much who had believed through grace. Here you may see it was the practice of the church of Christ to exhort, and did help them which believed through grace. Acts xviii. And you may see in Acts xx. how the apostle had given the church of Macedonia much exhortation, and this exhortation was in the spirit and power of Christ ; for Christ gave to his disciples power and authority over all devils, &c. Luke ix.

And the apostles exhorted the Thessalonians to exhort. 2 Thess. iii. and in Thess. iv. 1. and said, ' We beseech you brethren, and exhort you by the name of the Lord Jesus, that as you have received of us, how ye ought to walk and please God.' And said, moreover, ' Ye know how that we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, &c. that ye walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1 Thess. ii. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and exhort and edify one another, even as ye also do. And we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, and comfort the feeble minded, and support the weak, and be patient towards all men.' Here you may see the church hath authority, both to support, and comfort, and exhort, and warn the unruly. 1 Thess. v.

And you may see how the apostles did command and exhort such as walk disorderly, in 2 Thess. iii. And the apostle did exhort, saying, ' Save yourselves from this untoward generation.' Acts xx. 40. And the apostle exhorted the mariners that were in the ship, ' Be of good cheer, for there shall be no loss of any man's life ; I believe in God, and that it shall be even as it was told me,' to wit, by the Lord. Acts xxvii. And the apostle saith to Timothy, ' Give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine; neglect not the gift that is in thee;' and bid Timothy, teach and exhort, and to be an example to the believers in word, conversation, faith, charity, and purity. 1 Tim. ii. 4. 6.

And the apostle exhorts Timothy, ' Preach the word in season, and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but turn their ears away from the truth, and heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.' And therefore ye see the church's authority to exhort, rebuke, and reprove such. Tim. ii. 4. But the apostle saith to Timothy, ' Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father, and the elder women as mothers,' &c. 1 Tim. v.

And the apostle saith to Titus, in chap. 2. ' Exhort, rebuke, with all authority, and exhort servants to be obedient to their own masters, &c. that they may adorn the doctrine of God in all things.' And the apostle exhorted Titus, to ' set in order the things that are wanting in Crete, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.' And they were to be such as were able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort, and convince gainsayers. And the apostle exhorted Titus, ' to rebuke sharply the unruly, and vain talkers and deceivers.' Tit. i. And Titus received the apostle's exhortation, when they sent him to the Corin thians. 2 Cor. 8. And the apostle said, ' A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject.'

And the apostle saith, ' Let us consider one another, to provoke one another unto good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves to gether, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as ye see the day approach,' to wit, of Christ Jesus. Heb. x. 24, 25. And the apostle said, ' I beseech you brethren, suffer ye the word of exhortation,' &c. Heb. xiii. And the apostle saith to the Colossians, ' Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another,' &c. Col. iii. So here you may see the church of Christ, from his word dwelling in them, were able to teach and admonish one another from the word of wisdom in them. So it seems then, they did not set a priest over them, that he might be always teaching of them, and they might be always paying of him. And the apostle saith to the Romans, Rom. xv. 14. ' I myself also am persuaded of you my brethren, that ye are full of goodness, and filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.'

So here you may see the church of the Romans were able to admonish one another then, without setting up of colleges to make priests to admonish them ; and therefore, as the apostle saith to the Philippians, in chap. ii. ' that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked generation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life.' And the apostle saith, ' I have sent Tychicus unto you, (the Ephesians,) that he might know your affairs, and might comfort your hearts.' Ephes. vi. 21. Here the churches knew, and made known the affairs one unto another in the Lord.

And Jude exhorted the church in his General Epistle, that they should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints or sanctified ones, which faith Christ is the author and finisher of. And now, had all Christendom contended for this faith or belief, then they would not have made so many faiths or beliefs to kill and destroy one another about, had they kept in Christ's saving faith, which saves and doth not destroy, and with that shield of faith ye do not war with flesh and blood to destroy it.

And the Lord sent Jeremiah to admonish the children of Israel, that they should not go into Egypt ; but they disobeyed the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, and went into Egypt ; therefore Jeremiah told them,  they should die in the land of Egypt, and should be consumed.' Jer. xlii. 43, 44. Here you may see what became of them that disobeyed the admonishment of the Lord and his prophet ; and therefore Solomon saith, ' Better is a poor and a wise child, than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished, or knoweth not to be admonished.' Eccles. iv. And Solomon saith, The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, &c. by these my son be admonished.' Eccles. xii. So it is good for all to receive the exhortations and admonishments from the power and spirit of Christ. And Christ bade John write unto the church of Thyatira, ' that he had a few things against them, because they suffered Jezabel to teach,' &c. Rev. ii. And so you may see this church came under reproof, because they did not make use of their power and authority, in the spirit of Christ to judge Jezabel's spirit ; and therefore the church of Christ now, is not to suffer Jezabel's spirit, lest they come under the same reproof, if they suffer that Jezabel's spirit to teach, now as then. And here you may see how that Christ hath given his church power and authority in his holy spirit to admonish, exhort, judge, reprove, and rebuke in his power and spirit.

You are correct to highlight the place of teaching, admonishment, and exhortation within the community of Christ. I found edifying Fox’s words two paragraphs after the paragraph you quoted where he admonishes:

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another,' &c. Col. iii. So here you may see the church of Christ, from his word dwelling in them, were able to teach and admonish one another from the word of wisdom in them.”

He then goes on the say:

“So it seems then, they did not set a priest over them, that he might be always teaching of them, and they might be always paying of him.”

He then goes further and says in the very next paragraph:

“So here you may see the church of the Romans were able to admonish one another then, without setting up of colleges to make priests to admonish them ; and therefore, as the apostle saith to the Philippians, in chap. ii. ' that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked generation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life.' “

And ending the whole of his epistle Fox says:

“Christ hath given his church power and authority in his holy spirit to admonish, exhort, judge, reprove, and rebuke in his power and spirit.”

Fox ever focus’ on teaching and admonishment etc., in the Spirit ... in the immediate revelation of the Spirit ... not in thoughts about the Spirit. Fox admonishes immediacy. Notice he is clearly pointing to admonishment in the immediate revelation of Spirit, not through abstract doctrines of “priests” and “collegues” but through the direct influence, guidance, and teaching of the Spirit.

I pray these words edify.

 

Comment by Daniel Francis on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 5:28pm

I agree with Gurney in his distrust of lives lived based solely on inner leadings. There must be checks in place to certify whether a spirit is of God or of the evil one. Whether it is of love or selfishness. If this check does not exist we have spiritual anarchy. There has to be a rule by which we determine what is of the Spirit and what is not.

I depart from Gurney when he suggests that the Bible should be the ONLY check. It should not. Reason (The knowledge and wisdom we've gained in our lives), the discernment of the community of the faithful (tradition) , and our own past experiences of the divine presence should also have a role in checking the leadings of our hearts. 

No one method is sufficient to guide us on the straight path of truth. Even George Fox had to relent on forming a community where Quakers were simply allowed to believe and do whatever they claimed was from the leading of the Spirit.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 7:12pm

God is not "a method." But does serve 'to certify' what kind of spirit we are exemplifying, does find ample means to guide us, and can let us know all we need to know about other people's leadings. Which, unless we are personally called to resist or assist, ain't nobody's business but theirs & God's... If you call this "spiritual anarchy", does that mean you don't know who's in charge?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 1st mo. 31, 2014 at 7:57pm

Dear Daniel, Many of us know and experience the sufficiency of the inward Spirit of Jesus Christ  informing and guiding us in our conscious and conscience. Personally, I turn from the Life at times, however, intentionality and watchfulness bring about a re-turning to the informing, guiding, and teaching Presence within. The Presence has become sufficient and is my guide and light in all things as the Light ever more and more illuminates the darkness in my consciousness and conscience. Christ is the One.

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