Comment by Keith Saylor on 11th mo. 30, 2013 at 3:05pm

Hello Bill

I am beholden to you for the honesty of your response.

While reading your words, the Presence blazed within me in deep and abiding authority; so that a dark spirit of defensiveness, manifesting itself on the horizon of my soul, was shown to me.  I was present in the Presence and with intention and watchfulness,  responded by embracing Christ, and was affirmed and anchored in the Holy Spirit. On this anchor and with authority I watched the spirit of defensiveness. This act of observing (not thinking about ... non ideological) was a living (present) rebuke and the power of the dark spirit of defensiveness to turn my gaze from the inner Guide was negated in light of the Holy Spirit and intentive watchfulness.

The inner Teacher brought forth, experientially, the wonder and strength of the renewal of the mind; the self-conscious ego anchored in the spiritual mind (which is eternal) rather than the natural mind (that is bound to the outward body and death).

Your words became such a source of edification and renewal in the Spirit. May these words affirm the testimony of Christ within.

Giving glory and honor to the inner Guide.

Comment by Barbara Smith on 12th mo. 1, 2013 at 3:25pm

Keith - I appreciate all the quotes from Wilbur. I confess I did not read all the above coments and am coming into this late, but I have just finished the Journal of Joseph Edgerton, a Wilburite at the time of the schism. He said over and over that he feared that the "Gurneyites" (though he did not yet use that word) were "shunning the daily cross". I feel I can almost but not quite grasp what he is getting at - it is just beyond my understanding. Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you think he is referring to their tendency or willingness to substitute something else (belief in the bible) for the need to obey the immediate revelations of Christ in our hearts? Same I guess could be said of substituting observance of church ordinances, services, sermons etc. for that obedience.

On a slightly different note I notice a "fear" among present day Friends that Christ can no longer be felt by us in a living and vibrant way and so maybe we have to "help" Him along by including prepared messages in our worship etc. This seems like a slippery slope to me and one that is definitely a sign of lack of true faith in the reality of the Spirit who can in fact get through to all of us no matter what! Instead maybe we need to meditate on why we are doubtful and worried that God cannot contact us and feed our meetings!

thanks again for your insights and readings,

Barb

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 2, 2013 at 7:51am

Hello Barbara. You said:

"I feel I can almost but not quite grasp what he is getting at - it is just beyond my understanding."

The inner Light  is tender within you. Understanding and discernment is flowing, in a living way ... intuitively. My suggestion is not the "grasp" at understanding. Hold to, live, and embrace that living feeling. "Deep down, and feel for the foundation."

Your statements and questions are edifying and a blessing. For me to add to them would be to step all over the work of the inner Guide within you. You are truly a sister in Christ. Thank you for sharing the workings and leadings of the Spirit within.

Comment by Barbara Smith on 12th mo. 2, 2013 at 8:06am

Keith - thank you for your encouragement and words of wisdom. you are right. i have often felt the dawning of Light just over the horizon but it has not risen to the point of being able to wrap it in words yet. That is an exciting feeling and one I have learned to pay close attention to - and not to be too anxious to hurry the process. Isaac Pennington warned us to not be impatient to "know" things but to let the Light show them to us in It's own good time. Perhaps there is a reason we are not to know something and it is important to be able to be comfortable with "not knowing." I suppose that is true faith.

Barb

Comment by Barbara Smith on 12th mo. 2, 2013 at 8:23am

Bill - I didn't read your post earlier and would like to comment on it. I personally can completely affirm the experience Keith is describing in his awareness of the Presence of Christ or the Spirit "superseding", or "overlaying" I might call it, the activity he is engaged in on a physical level. It is as if I can be on two levels at once. I can still perfectly function on the physical level, and my senses are in no way affected, in fact they seem to be sharpened, while I simultaneously have a basically "physical" awareness of the Spirit inside me. This is a common, daily, occurrence for me. It is the Rock I stand on, a constant comfort in time of need or uncertainty, it is the Bread of Life that nourishes me. I am surprised by your reaction to that reality.

In confusion,

Barb

Comment by Lee Nichols on 12th mo. 4, 2013 at 11:57am

Dear Keith,

I am having trouble following Wilbur's concern about Gurney from Gurney's writings.  This lead me to wonder what evidence Wilbur has that Gurney departed from "faith in the immediate revelation or guidance of the inner Spirit" or that "belief in the written Gospel of Scripture was sufficient to salvation."  

We know that Fox taught Christ has come to teach us himself and that we continue to have a responsibility to teach others both inside and outside of our meetings.  We also know that Fox saw an intimate working knowledge of scripture as a goal for everyone.  Scripture and belief in its authority made it much easier to explain the Quaker message about Jesus and our need to experience and respond to His Spirit.  

It seems to me that both a failure to appreciate the place of Scripture in preaching and teaching or the failure to see that the Scripture teaches that a vital personal fellowship with God in the Spirit of Christ is essential will lead to a weakened Quaker experience.

There are many example of Fox's instructions about preaching or teaching. One is his article "To those that forbid preaching in the name of Christ" We also have Fox's letter CCCLV.—To Friends inAmerica which says in part:
    And also, you must instruct and teach your Indians and negroes, and all others, how that Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man, and gave himself a ransom for all men, to be testified in due time, and is the propitiation not for the sins of christians only, but for the sins of the whole world: and how, that he doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world, with his true light, which is the life in Christ, by whom the world was made. ....
    And the Lord said, ‘He knew that Abraham would teach and instruct his family, that they should learn to keep his laws and statutes after he was gone;' and Abraham did circumcise all his males, yea, them that he had bought with his money of any stranger. Now who are of faith, and walks in the steps of faithful Abraham, do preach up and instruct all their families in the circumcision of the spirit, that they might be circumcised with the spirit, which puts off the body of death, and the sins of the flesh, that is come up in man and woman by transgression; so that in the spirit they may serve and worship the true and living God; ....

On preaching there is "[This highly interesting document, signed by Edward Burrough, and dated 1662, is taken from a collection of copies of letters and papers, in four folio volumes, entitled "John Pennington's Collection of his Father's Manuscripts," and preserved in London. "
This is a description of Quaker evangelizing effort in London.  Burrough writes in part:
    And though we met with, and were exercised in, many trials and much opposition from men of all conditions; yet we were not discouraged, nor of fearful hearts, nor fainting in the work of the Lord, nor overcome by oppositions; but we went on in boldness and confidence in God, holding forth the perfect way of salvation to all, both by doctrine, practice, and conversation; which have been to this day, every way according to the ancient and true gospel of peace, and there is not any other. ....
     being wholly devoted to the work of the ministry, to which we were ordained of God, and were continually exercised in preaching the gospel, in answering books and manuscripts put forth against us, and in disputes and contentions with such as opposed the Truth. These and the like services have been our continual work and exercise for these divers years, faithfully performed by us in the sight of God; for which our reward is with us, in our peace and comfort with the living God for ever.
A reasonable question occurs: although preaching and teaching doctrine may be required outside those unconvinced by the Quaker message, what place does it have with those who know Christ teaches them Himself?  We probably have more early Quaker writings at our disposal now than Wilbur had thanks to web-sites such as the following with early Quaker sermons:  http://www.qhpress.org/quakerpages/qhoa/park.htm   Here Parke combines preaching and scripture in a way that shows the value of both to early Quaker life.  This sermon also seems suitable as a Quaker Christmas Sermon as well.  
Does Quaker life require both preaching, teaching and scripture as well as an opportunity for deep, focused, personal communion with the Spirit of Christ?  Does Wilbur try to exclude the former?  Does Gurney fail to emphasis the latter?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 4, 2013 at 5:30pm

Dear Lee,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the text references. I am pasting a copy of a post a wrote in another forum to preface my answers to your queries.

--------------

It is important to preface my answer to your questions by offering a sense of things coming out of my study of J.J. Gurney and Joseph Ash. I add Ash into the mix because these two are labored together against Wilbur and Wilbur mentions them both. Also, I have read so much of both that I do not trust myself to not mix the words of both. I have yet to discipline my readings of each. This will come later. So forgive me if I write in general terms concerning them. As this season of study flowers and fruits, I will become more and more focused and disciplined in my study of each. Right now, I am just becoming more acquainted with them ... more an observer than one drawing solid conclusions.

Some Thoughts:

Gurney and Ash created an abstract or outward intellectual framework around which it became acceptable to live and move in the Quaker context without focus on and experience of the immediate influence of the inner presence of Christ.

The framework anchored the individual in outward rational forms rather than the direct intuitive personal immediacy of the inner Light; an adherence to intellectual (“natural faculties”) form rather than spiritual immediacy.

Wilbur’s concern was deference to the notion that belief in and living according to the testimony of outward Scriptures were sufficient to salvation would lead to the very apostasy (bondage to outward form rather than experience) the early Quakers struggled against. Quakerism was iconoclastic in its origin; smashing the ideological, ritualistic, and institutional idols of Protestantism and Catholicism. When Gurney and Ash make room for, for example, “preaching by natural faculties” rather than waiting of immediate revelation or the intuition of the inner Spirit, this is regression into the very apostasy the early Quakers struggled against, according to Wilbur. The uniqueness of the Quaker testimony was in waiting on immediate revelation (on the movement and leading of the inner Spirit) and supporting that waiting in the community context of silent meeting toward the salvation, justification, and perfection of human being. It was the very foundation of the early Quaker experience.

But all this talk of immediate revelation, inner light, inner Christ, salvation, etc., what does it mean practically. At its core, the early Quaker witness was experienced directly. Salvation was not concept, it was experienced and renewed daily and moment by moment in the eternal nature of Christ within. This experience is the transformation, renewal, and redirection of the mind away from abstraction to experience. Here is the essence of it. Human being or consciousness is normally anchored in the reflective nature of the body through the working of the five senses and the brain. What happens when the sense of taste, smell, hearing, sight, touch, and thoughts and emotions reflected in the brain no longer function ... that is, when the mirrors of the body no longer function ... death ... does life, being, consciousness, sustain? Consciousness anchored in the bodily nature cannot sustain upon the dissolution of the body. The testimony of the “Living Gospel” is through the power of the Holy Spirit, the inner Light, the individual is reborn spiritually ... individual consciousness anchored in the eternal being of the Comforter, the inner Christ. The new birth in the union of the human and the divine. The renewed eternal consciousness is the redirection of the mind away from the rational natural faculties of the bodily nature to the intuitive spiritual nature.
For Wilbur, and those like him in experience, the want of Gurney and Ash to make room for preaching not in the immediate influence of the inner Spirit and the suggest that mere belief in the outward Scripture is sufficient to salvation of the soul was a deprecation of immediate revelation is the salvation of human being. To be fair, Gurney and Ash in most of their writings come across as balanced. The try to walk a line between immediate influence of the Spirit and the use of the natural faculties. In fact, Wilbur often expresses his exasperation over his perception that Gurney and Ash are being deceptive. Gurney and Ash’s style is very conciliatory, suggesting, for example, that Scripture was as important to the early Quakers and immediate revelation. After all, they refer turn to Scripture all the time. This sounds rational and reasonable. However, it is not reflective of their experience. Scripture was solidly important yet it was not a thing it itself, its validity is in the context of immediate experience. It nurtured their experience. Scripture had meaning in the context of their experience of the inner Spirit. Immediate revelation is primary. Scripture is secondary. Without immediate revelation Scripture is dead. That is why Wilbur and others so often speak of the “Living Gospel” as opposed to the written Gospel in the Scriptures.

Ash wrote an instructive pamphlet entitled:
“George Fox, His Character, His Doctrine and Work, An Essay 1871
https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Edward_Ash_George_Fox_H...

This pamphet is revealing because Ash goes a long way toward honestly revealing his true thoughts on the early Quakers. His earlier writings are much more balanced than this piece, suggesting that Wilbur’s concern of the deceptive nature of Gurney and Ash was valid.

It is equally revealing to read George Pitt’s response to Ash’s pamphlet above:
“Immediate Revelation True: And George Fox Not Mistaken ; a Testimony for George Fox, Against His Detractors and Traducers, Especially Against One who Has Lately Published a Pamphlet, Signed, "E.A.," ...” 1873
https://play.google.com/store/books/details/George_Pitt_Immediate_R...

But these pamphlets are only around 50 pages and are worth reading.

Wilbur certainly manifested an anger and frustration to, in my opinion, manifested a lose of witness that even he admitted. He was, at times, so depressed and saddened by the mingling of the notions of Gurney and Ash into the Quaker contest that he wept for days. However, while Gurney and Ash, were much more sober minded and reflective, they were brutally surgical in their attack an immediate revelation. I have a sense that Gurney and Ash knew they could not be completely forthright about their thoughts on the early Quakers, using their rational and intellectual skills to set up moderate front to captivate members of the Society into acceptance of outward form over experience. If this is true, their negative impact on the “true foundational experience” went way beyond that of Wilbur in his frustration.

I suspect I’ve not completely addressed your questions and that our discussion will be extended.

Lee, I am reading to texts you linked to and considering your thoughts. I will post further on your thoughts.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 5, 2013 at 11:44am

“Many may have the scriptures, and not know Christ, for they will not give the knowledge of Christ ; that which comes from him, and shines in the heart, doth give the knowledge of Christ the Light.”

“All who are converted, are brought into the mediate, and converted with the immediate, and there are none converted upon the earth, but it is with the immediate Spirit of God that mortifies. And all ministry that is sent of God, and from God, and called of God, where that speaks to them, it is immediate and powerful. And all ministry of man, sent out by man, which is mediate, never converts any souls to God ; for the soul is immediate, and mediate reacheth not to the immortal soul, but the immediate ministry reacheth to the im mediate immortal soul, and so preacheth the immediate Gospel to it, which is the power of God.”

Source: “The Great Mystery ... “ George Fox.

Hello Lee,

Dear Lee,

I keep coming back to your clearly written statement:

“It seems to me that both a failure to appreciate the place of Scripture in preaching and teaching or the failure to see that the Scripture teaches that a vital personal fellowship with God in the Spirit of Christ is essential will lead to a weakened Quaker experience.”

On their face, your words are cordial. However, and with humility, when I deepen down into them they hit me otherwise. Holding to immediate experience does not mean a lack of appreciation for scripture. However, the early Quaker testimony and my experience of the eternal inner Presence does not equate the two. Immediate revelation is primary, scripture is secondary. The “vital religion” of the early Quakers is immediate revelation. It is vital to hold firm to the primacy of immediate revelation over the outward form of scripture. To equate the outward words of scripture with immediate revelation is to diminish the vital direct experience of the inner Presence of Christ and to artifically place the outward letters of scripture on a false pedestal.

Gurney and Ash equated the two. That is where Wilbur and others took issue with them.

Also, Wilbur and the early Quakers surely appreciated the “place of  Scripture in preaching and teaching”, however, and this is the rub, they did not appreciate preaching and teaching Scripture outside of the direct guidance of the inner Christ through immediate revelation. Gurney and Ash made room for preaching and teaching Scripture in the mind of men and women, that is, through natural human faculties. This essentially results in equating Scripture with immediate revelation.

Of course, I may be incorrect in thinking your are equating the two? I hope this response doesn’t come across as an attack. I am merely struggling to honestly articulate what I sense may be a difference.

Yours in Christ

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 5, 2013 at 5:30pm

Dear Lee,

Concerning your queries:

1. Does Quaker life require both preaching, teaching and scripture as well as an opportunity for deep, focused, personal communion with the Spirit of Christ?
a. Early Quaker** life required deep, focused, personal communion with the Spirit of Christ in each and every moment of life; including preaching, teaching, and scripture reading. The requirement is personal commune with the Spirit of Christ while (in the active present tense) preaching, teaching, and in the study of scripture. Preaching, teaching, and scripture study were the result of present and active personal commune with the Spirit of Christ.

2. Does Wilbur try to exclude the former?
a. Wilbur preached, taught, and read scripture in direct personal communion with the Spirit.

3. Does Gurney fail to emphasis the latter?
a. Gurney, while not denying personal communion with the Spirit, gives space for preaching, teaching, and scripture study from “natural faculties”, detached from immediate personal communion with the Spirit.

** I changed the first query a bit because the unqualified “Quaker life” suggests all Quakers preach, teach, and read scripture and that all profess personal communion with the Spirit of Christ. My experience is that this is not the case, so I qualified my response to “Early” Quakers.

Comment by Lee Nichols on 12th mo. 7, 2013 at 1:46pm

Dear Keith,
 
Thank you for the information on Wilbur's concerns. I do not see Gurney or Wilbur as authorities although I am sure I could learn from them.  I know if I had to choose, I would choose an unprogramed mostly silent meeting to nourish my spiritual life, but I don't have to choose.  

You pointed out, I think rightly so, that the Spiritual life of Quakers continues through out the daily activities of life.  That would also include the activities of teaching and preaching and of reading scripture and other works as well as in prayer and waiting silence.  So aren't the  activities that Gurney stressed in the Spirit for a spirit directed Quaker.  On the other hand, those that are not yet letting the Spirit transform them may find a chance to hear the Spirit speaking to them when they lay aside their preoccupations and concerns during the time they focus on reading or listening to the bible which is the written basis for Quaker doctrine of life in the Spirit of Christ.

I believe I have experienced some Quaker meetings in the mid-west  that have been hijacked by those that emphasize form over the Spirit and in the east by  those that emphasize spirit over the foundational basics and the sources in which the early Quakers found the power to change the world.  It seems to me that the history of Quaker life from the mid nineteenth century to the present has been lacking in power because they have separated these two stones necessary for a strong foundation.  

I agree with those that point to a need to reconnected with the early Quaker teaching.  This requires mental effort and is the only way, I think, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.            

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