Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 29, 2015 at 10:08am

A work of fiction is much the same, ie in creating (or perpetuating) a particular model of the world, often quite insidiously. In the past that property has many times been used to sharpen and enhance people's awareness of the reality and significance of various aspects -- and also used to soothe them into illusion and to maintain distorted ethical relationships.

So is any performance... whether live, spread by radio (Goebbels ), movies (our own WW II propaganda and current justifications of violence) -- or by tv (commercials, 'news', dramas...)

yet how many people have any critical awareness of how very effectively these things continue to shape their thoughts and feelings?

Comment by Roger Vincent Jasaitis on 7th mo. 29, 2015 at 12:49pm

Thank you Forrest for the insights. All of your examples can be used for "good" as well. It is our awareness of the intent that is important.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 29, 2015 at 7:14pm

Manipulation is not persuasion, does not recognize the other person as a fellow poorsoul but as an object to be worked on, whether or not the manipulation is well-intended.

There is also unconscious manipulation, in which the manipulator wishes to justify his own bad compromise by perpetuating his  example in other people.

And simple unconscious bias, readily conveyed by many forms of communication, whatever the intention -- although some media lend themselves too well to catching their audience in an uncritical daze...

Comment by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 29, 2015 at 9:38pm

Forrest Curo wrote: "Manipulation is not persuasion, does not recognize the other person as a fellow poorsoul but as an object to be worked on, whether or not the manipulation is well-intended."

Forrest, this is a powerful insight! Some chronic manipulators believe they are doing everyone else a favor by "rigging" decision-making to get their own way.

Comment by Roger Vincent Jasaitis on 7th mo. 30, 2015 at 9:40am

Persuade: :  to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action

Manipulate: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

I would say that Merriam-Webster agrees with you both :-)

Comment by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 30, 2015 at 12:44pm

Aside from common usage, there's a distinction we really need to make between methods that are kosher and methods that are essentially illegitimate.

Benign intention isn't the only criteria, and appeals to emotion aren't necessarily illegitimate... Methods that work to bribe or intimidate the judgement,  or  to derail critical thinking, to evade invalidating facts or induce an audience to prematurely close down the search for alternative explanations --

Such things tend to be the norm in most political and many religious arguments; they are essential to what is called 'advertising' (still ranked above prostitution in the social hierarchy, for reasons I can't account for.)

And all too many people are habitually, inadvertently doing these things to themselves...

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