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Permalink Reply by Mackenzie on 7th mo. 6, 2016 at 10:30pm

And "Haredi" means "those who quake."  

A Jewish friend explained to me that all Hassidim are Haredim, but not vice versa.

So you've got the quaking Jews who reject modern culture, and then as a subset of them are the super-spiritual Jews.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 6, 2016 at 11:46pm

Well, there's 'shuckling'. But that's a swaying motion from fervent prayer, not literal shaking -- though the P'nai Or synagogue Anne & I visited was certainly based [through Zalman Schacter-Shalomi's influence] on Hasidic traditions.

'Quaking' seems to be problematic as a sign of spiritual inspiration. It can certainly indicate a free flow of bodily energies potentially helpful towards openness to spiritual influence -- but was also a feature of 'the Reverend H.J. Prince's congregations, which drifted pretty far out in the direction of pure grandiosity (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agapemonites#Henry_James_Prince )

There's a clear link between willingness to experience strong emotion and willingness to accept God's influence; yet these things are clearly not the same.

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Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 8:15am

Let me begin by apologizing for blowing my own horn.  There, that's done!  And now....

My essay on "Ann Branson and the Eclipse of Oracular Ministry in Nineteenth Century Quakerism" is about to be published in the Fall, 2016, issue of Quaker History.  The essay addresses "prophetic consciousness" (to use the terminology Forrest cited), quaking, the popular term "prophetic ministry", and the Conservative Quaker ethos, all in the context of Ann Branson's life and ministry.  I did leave out the kitchen sink, but one can only cram so much into one article!!

By the way, Forrest, I have a long-standing interest in the Hasidic tradition, and have read extensively on it.  Most recently, I finished Joseph Berger's The Pious Ones, a good study by a journalist.  

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 10:27am

For a good update on scruffy modern developments, Rodger Kamenetz' Stalking Elijah makes for a good rundown. Schacter-Shalomi [May he keep on stirring up things (restfully!)] was one of the heavy hitters in what's called Jewish Renewal, and did some pretty interesting studies of the tradition himself. [I gather you've found the pamphlet listed -- a bit steep for a scraping-by person like myself, but quite interesting.

Whether or not you call that mode of consciousness 'prophetic' or not (because the traditional elements of knowing future outcomes and seeing the meaning of outward events via communion w the mind of God -- aren't quite as essential as the basic remembrance to rely on Guidance -- instead of first turning to one's own head or other parts... Erich Schiffmann recommends a similar approach from a yogic, theosophical background;

and currently reading John Punshon's Encounter with Silence to Anne, I just reached "Friends of former times were gravely suspicious of making common cause with other people in case it led to a weakening of the Quaker peculiarities,

_notably the importance of waiting on God for individual guidance, rather than using reason or our native wit_."

This doesn't imply that we should throw out our reason, but that we do need to keep it in its place rather than seating it on The Throne (as the modern temptation has typically been).

So, can we please get a sketch of where writing that essay took you?

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Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 12:13pm

Forrest wrote: "So, can we please get a sketch of where writing that essay took you?

Believe it or not, I worked intermittently for 16 years on that paper, and read it at three scholarly meetings. After the last meeting, at the Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies at Elizabethtown College (PA), I said to myself: at this point, it's either publication or bust.

I revised the paper for the umpteenth time, and submitted it to Quaker History!  They accepted it for publication, with some stipulations about elaborating on certain points and checking out a treasure trove of diary entries by Joseph S. Elkinton having reference to Ann Branson, which called for a trip to Swarthmore College.

I finished the final revision of the paper on July 4 (no canceling July 4th, please!), and the Editor sent the paper off to the publisher.

At this point, I am in slow recovery!  I could attempt to do an abstract, which would give some idea of the contents of the paper, but I need some time to get my bearings first; maybe I can produce something in a week or so.

By the way, I have read Kamenetz.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 1:19pm

Anyway, I imagine, then, that you too have found inspiration in the Hasidic traditions -- Have you also seen some similarities between developments there and among Friends?

Only past-historical, or do we seem to be going through equivalent challenges & efforts to respond to them?

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Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 2:02pm

Forrest:

Michael (now the de facto farm manager around here) wants me outside to work on fence-building, so I can't take long.

See Ted A. Campbell, The Religion of the Heart: A Study of European Religious Life in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries.   

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Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 2:07pm

I had to end the last post, because the font was too large, and I couldn't find a way to reduce it.  Campbell's book shows how the Pietist movement cut across many religious boundaries back in the 17th and 18th centuries, including Protestant, Catholic and Jewish.  The primary manifestation of Pietism among the Jews was Hasidism.  And Quakerism was a significant British example of Pietism.

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Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 2:13pm

 http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=17611748738

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 7, 2016 at 2:33pm

No, I'm a low-budget person, remember?

I took a glance via google books, & now have it on hold from the local 'Circuit' library system.

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Permalink Reply by Kirby Urner on 7th mo. 10, 2016 at 12:19pm

This passage is consistent with Quakerism (except for the "Sages closing the interval" part) as well as with Sufism and many other isms.  

American Transcendentalism likewise comes to mind: Whitman (oft claimed by Quakers); Emerson; Fuller (both Margaret and her grand nephew Richard); and so on.  I would count myself in this set as well, as something of a Fuller disciple.

However it's also a good idea to read Thomas Paine on what to make of these words "prophecy" and "prophesy" (I mix those two up sometimes):

There is not, throughout the whole book called the Bible, any word that describes to us what we call a poet, nor any word that describes what we call poetry. The case is, that the word prophet, to which a later times have affixed a new idea was the Bible word for poet, and the word 'prophesying' meant the art of making poetry. It also meant the art of playing poetry to a tune upon any instrument of music.

Why read Paine in this context? He was raised a Quaker and became a deist (so what? -- is that disqualifying?  Not in my book).

In general, I think of Quakerism as having been transformed by the Age of Reason, whereas Hasidism is perhaps less the creature of -- and fomenter of -- an Industrial Age?

We're a business-oriented sect, which may be the attribute we have most in common (versus shared metaphysics).

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 7th mo. 10, 2016 at 7:45pm

Well, I'd say we have 'sages' in our own tradition who fear that "continuing revelation" --  continuing too freely -- will arrive at doctrines contrary to their own understanding of both the Bible and Quaker tradition -- and that is a tradition that goes back at least to Barclay, with his insistence that no true new revelation could contradict what was in the Bible... which I

guess depends greatly on what one takes to be its essential "Message".

For better or worse, our tradition continues to evolve, and where it stops, only God knows.

Paine hadn't heard that the Bible was thick with poetry? -- that while the amount of rythmic regularity and use of poetic 'devices' varies a great deal from place to place, the use of metaphor is a built-in feature of Hebrew and the Aramaic Jesus probably spoke?

While there is a passage where Isaiah calls for a harpist to help him settle into a prophetic state, that doesn't seem to have been a regular practice (or the king who'd consulted him would have made one available in the first place.

And certainly this sort of 'poetry', in the Bible, is not taken to be merely a decorative art form; it was experienced and received as a revelation of God's intention for a situation and/or the meaning of what was occurring.

Blake, being a poet himself, was closer to the mark on that question: not reducing prophets to what we call 'Poetry', but insisting that poetry can and occasionally does rise to the level of prophecy.

Fox said he was once "tempted" to be a deist, but recognized that train of thought to be 'a temptation, which he experienced primarily to prepare him for certain people with similar doctrines he encountered soon afterwards.

Quakerism (like other religions systems) does sometimes get influenced far too much by the spirit of whatever Age it finds itself in -- but I'd hate to reduce it to the limitations of these excessively-interesting times.

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