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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 12:15pm

This is about separating the soul from the cares of the material world.  Our inability not to react to such acts, as well as proposed interpretations such as those you cite, is a barometer of how much our soul is tied to the material (as compared to the spiritual) world we travel in.  Jesus constantly tells us the Kingdom of God is within; urges us to lay up treasures in heaven where they cannot rust or be stolen; etc.  Resurrection requires no ties to this world;  Peace requires no sense of ownership;  Love requires true servant hood.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 1:19pm

Um, agreed as far as letting go of 'cares of the material world,' but we're supposed to pray to have God's overt jurisdiction extend over this world we're physically embodied in, so far. "Kingdom of God" is: 'within,' but also 'among you' and 'within your grasp' depending on how someone reads that statement.

Servanthood requires love... but love might well be implemented various ways. Speaking of that, duties in this world are impinging for now -- more later.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 1:54pm

Okay, too late to edit -- I just wanted to add that 'resurrection' isn't the point (although if one dies in the course of events, God will of course know where to find the parts.) You come out sounding as if this life isn't part of that 'Kingdom', although Jesus cured plenty of people's temporary afflictions. I know we aren't supposed to let things in this world keep us constantly scared, running, preoccupied -- but it isn't as if God can't or doesn't care to fix material conditions, other things being equal.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 2:40pm

Living in this life while not being tied to this life is the trick.  At least I think it is.  It's what I try to do.  So far as social justice is concerned which is what I think you referring to, this section isn't about that.  As I understand it if we allow the spirit to assist us in being transformed, social justice will flow out of us.  The problem is trying to put the task of following these verses on others when it's meant to be applied to the hearer.  Once the hearer accepts it and is able to live it, at least more than not,  he will be a vehicle of social justice or love.  the problem is we want to impose Social Justice as a requirement for our neighbors.  Jesus addresses this situation in Mathew 13, verses 24 to 30.  The Just and the Unjust will live together until the final judgment.  Our primary task is to watch over OUR heart with all diligence - See proverbs 4:23.

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 5:31pm

Well, not being tied to this life does seem important, in the sense of not being pushed around by fears and desires.

Social justice -- The Torah and the prophets made it clear that this matters to God; and Jesus didn't back off from that. True, Jesus wasn't trying to make it happen by marching against wars or lobbying for better governmental policies; he wasn't trying to coerce anyone's behavior; but he was laying out the way one needed to see and be to fit into the Big Deal. [Hmm, how's that for a term... an alternative to 'New Covenant'?]

I don't see any good rationale for the idea that some 'final judgement' is going to alter God's attitude or behavior towards anyone. Sending sunshine and rain for 'the Just and the Unjust' now -- but afterwards, "Hey, sorry, sunshine and rain services have been discontinued"? We've got parables of 'final judgement,' just as we've got the story of Dives getting brutalized while his former neighbor Lazarus eats grapes in Abraham's lap -- and there's a message in that, an implication that disregard of other people's needs is not okay. Most people know that this life can be sheer Hell; and Jesus can play Bad Cop with the worst of them on occasion; but threatening people with eternal punishment makes more sense as a means of persuasion than as anything consistent with God's character.

Dividing people into seeds & weeds likewise looks like a misapplication of Matthew 13; dividing ideas and habits in that way makes more sense. The later part of that chapter also hits some sour notes... I keep thinking said judge might tell people like me: "Hey, it says here that you fed Me and helped Me out a few times back in the day -- But what have you done for Me lately?"

I don't think we're talking courtroom with any of this; it is however very much about what does God want of people... which might be more helpful to think of in terms of 'Are we growing the right direction?' It's not, in other words, meant to be a stick to beat ourselves with.

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 8:38pm

I don't think "damnation" is a punishment.  Just a result.  That is it's not a sentence so much as a warning.  Not much difference except as it reflects on God's nature.  Jesus said God's will is that none be lost.  However, God has for his own purposes subjected His will to ours.  I appreciate your taking the time to rebut my positions as it makes me think twice.  There are so many questions and I often wonder why I don't have a problem when so many others do.  Hopefully these back and forths will help me in that regard.  Sometimes things seem so clear and then when I try to explain them to someone else I can't remember what I saw that made it clear in the first place.:)

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Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 6th mo. 9, 2015 at 9:09pm

Yeah... I agree the idea of damnation is a warning, sort of like "If you don't behave I'm going to sell you to the Gypsies!" But serious in the sense that you wouldn't want to think of yourself as a candidate for that sort of evaluation.

My elementary school graded us on various qualities they would have liked us to have: generally either 'Satisfactory', or 'Needs Improvement' -- and the threat of damnation would be something like a 'U'?

Would God consider anybody too much of a challenge? Unable to repent while remaining in character? Or would God just get tired of being a particular person?

But continuing to experience a particular thread of consciousness, while subjecting it to extra suffering because 'This one just isn't going to get it!' sounds like even more of a pain. The only interpretation that really fits God's character, the way I see that, would be akin to having a cop tell us: "Okay, we can do this the easy way, or we can do it the hard way." We really don't want to try the hard way!

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Permalink Reply by James C Schultz on 6th mo. 10, 2015 at 11:02am

That probably sums it up as much as anything.  I think God doesn't want to draw a line in the sand but such lines probably exist.

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