Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 11, 2015 at 11:33pm

At least one staggering non sequitor in the piece, ie that a correlation between churches/population and the incidence of church-going among a population -- would be caused by having more churches available, rather than through the obvious explanation: that people would organize more churches in an area where church-going was a widespread custom.

You could put a church on every corner here in San Diego -- and distribute  free sacramental popcorn at every service -- and most all of them would stand empty until whoever had been paying the landlord got tired of the waste. We do have churches -- strongly enthusiastic ones, so far as I can tell -- and I've only seen one of them actually go out of business. But they draw their congregations from a pretty small segment of the population, maybe even more than the numbers of coffee house patrons but certainly far less than that of the bar-dwelling subculture... And very very few have any interest in joining a Friends Meeting, no matter how many Meeting Houses one might set up.

So far as there's an appetite for what we (would like to have to ) offer -- That seems to be best served hereabouts by AA. (Too bad it wouldn't be worth having to start drinking just to join...)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 8th mo. 12, 2015 at 7:49am

Forrest Curo wrote: "At least one staggering non sequitor in the piece, ie that a correlation between churches/population and the incidence of church-going among a population -- would be caused by having more churches available, rather than through the obvious explanation: that people would organize more churches in an area where church-going was a widespread custom."

I also found this argument of Jeffrey Walton's hard to follow.  I don't think it is valid.  But the rest of his essay is IMHO top-notch.  What do you think?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 12, 2015 at 10:32am

The ad hoc nonworship group that some disgruntled ex-quakers have started here is now larger than the Meeting, some weeks, with no one in it showing any signs of wanting to be Quakers.... and they aren't serious either, not visibly yearning for anybody's Kingdom. Anne's church is full of good people largely willing to do Goodstuff in some of their spare time. Some cities just don't seem all that ripe for much.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by William F Rushby on 8th mo. 12, 2015 at 11:28am

 Forrest:  You are a good guy, and your comment about the group of ex-Friends in your community is worth exploring further.  BUT, I can't persuade you to assess Mr. Walton's essay except for one small piece--which IMHO is the weakest part of what he wrote.

I repeat once more, what do you think of his essay, barring what you have already commented on?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Forrest Curo on 8th mo. 12, 2015 at 12:01pm

That neither forming of churches, nor baptisms, nor the maintenance of existing institutions has a whole lot to do with the movement of the Spirit, so far as I've seen -- and that's all that truly matters. So I'm finding it all pretty much beside-the-point.

Just because my own growth seems painfully slow lately... so that even my yearning is practically reduced to 'knowing this is the only thing worth hoping for' -- and 'knowing that God is still at work whether I notice or not' -- doesn't mean that I find churches and Meetings entirely useless, just far short of what I used to hope they might be.

Any group can meet together in hopes of coming closer under God's teaching and influence. Probably we're helpful to each other in the process, if only for mutual annoyance and disappointment. More 'house churches', I would say -- arrangements with more verbal content than a typical LiberalFriendist Meeting and far more bottom-up participation than any church I've ever been to... might be a good subgoal.

"A group of people in love with God and each other," as Anne once described her hopes... More of these would be quite desirable; but people do have to be able and willing to want that. And sometimes hope is even harder than faith.

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion