Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 11th mo. 12, 2011 at 8:44am

You have described one example of the spiritual impotence of present-day Quakerism to confront the greed and injustice that pollutes our country. Keep thinking and seeing and confronting and reading Fox. From Epistle 161:

The sufferings in all ages, of the righteous and just, were, because they could not join to the nations' vain worships, evil customs, rudiments, traditions, and carnal inventions, but joined to the Lord, and not to them; and therefore they suffered, and kept single to the Lord God in following him and his truth, and living in it, the amen, the crown, life virtue, and righteousness, that floweth over all, in which the righteous have peace.

Comment by Bill Samuel on 11th mo. 12, 2011 at 9:38am

I believe the process you are describing is not traditional Quaker process at all, but rather secular consensus building through compromise. The goal of traditional Quaker process is for the Spirit of Christ to transform all in the meeting so they can unite in agreeing to God's will, regardless of their personal preferences. That is a process that involves changing people.

Comment by Sue Tannehill on 11th mo. 12, 2011 at 11:00am

Consensus answers the question,  What can we all live with, but none of us will to die for?

Sense of the meeting ASKS the question, "What is God (Spirit, whatever -- let's not get bogged down in arguing over names for the un-nameable) asking of us or calling us to right now?" The truthfulness of the answer to that question is usually measured by everyone's agreement. Often, this means not choosing between bits and pieces of two alternatives, but shifting to a third perspective, initially uncovered. Here's a concrete example of how I've seen that work in my own meeting:

 

In our own meeting the "sell the meetinghouse vs. the k

eep the meetinghouse" conflict changed when we realized that both positions cared about good stewardship and using the space well. Those who wanted to sell felt that we weren't using the space well, so we should let go of it. Those who wanted to keep it saw all kinds of potential (not the reality at the time) for good use of the space. Once we focused on the issue of stewardship, the sense was that we knew what was being asked of us; to try to find new ways to use the space well.

Years later we sold the meetinghouse and the day after we decided to let go of it, the man who eventually purchased it expressed interest. This too confirmed that we are correctly ascertaining what God was asking of us.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 12, 2011 at 3:36pm

Yes, we achieve considerable political "impotence" because our concern to be 'inoffensive' leads to us habitually muddling our communications.

 

Meanwhile, that creative Spirit of Christ  does sneak into the process as in Sue Tannehill's example; we just generally fail to explicitly recognize it.

 

The same Meeting can produce both spiritual Quaker process and 'secular consensus building,' on different occasions; maybe even on the same occasion... Sometimes (even at Pendle Hill) one has to settle for 'the best we're able to do, this time'; and this isn't always a failure to 'follow the Spirit'; the Spirit can be telling people,"This works well enough, go with it."

 

The fact that people aren't recognizing God doesn't mean that God isn't working in them, through them, for them. It just seems like it would be a whole lot easier if we all knew this is happening!

 

Query for me... Am I letting God help write this, or trying to "figure out" what to write? (Up to about this point in this reply, I have to say I was trying to wrestle it out myself, as if "I" were a separate being and needed to do it that way. How about you?...)

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 13, 2011 at 7:33pm

San Diego Monthly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) believes governments should be sensitive and responsive to public protests and human suffering. We favor a guarantee of adequate food, housing, health care, education and employment for all citizens and residents of the country.  We are disturbed by the increasing concentration of wealth in this country and the prevalence of investment practices which enrich the few and fail to bring any benefit to the majority of the population.

 

The Hebrew scriptures — and Jesus’ interpretations of these, the historical source of our own religious practices — proclaim that the good things of this world are intended for the support of human needs, not the enrichment of a privileged few. Thus, an economic system can not be safely left to narrow private interests, but must subordinate these to spiritual considerations as reflected in Friends testimonies of simplicity, equality, community, stewardship and peace.

 

The ‘Occupy’ movement is seeking an end to the current political/economic climate’s economically destructive and fraudulent investment practices, dysfunctional concentration of financial wealth, neglect of the public’s employment, educational, food, housing, and health care needs, and the corrupting effect of the financial sector’s disproportionate influence in the nation’s affairs.

 

We ask that everyone think seriously about the willingness of so many people to undertake the hardships and risks of this movement. This is a sign of deep and widespread human suffering, as well as alienation from and distrust of our political processes.  Now is a time for all residents of this country to come together in a spirit of worship, and work for the best interests of the country and all of its residents  —  rather than for the privileged few.

 

[approved by the Meeting, November 13, 2011]

Comment by Beth Belch on 11th mo. 14, 2011 at 6:11am

I don't comment often Forrest, but  I love hearing what you have to say. Your honesty is refreshing and never fails to give me food for thought.

 

Comment by James C Schultz on 11th mo. 14, 2011 at 11:49am

I have been praying abot this occupy movement since its inception.  I am inclined not to support the "movement" but to acknowledge the need for change and to support the right attempt at specific change.  Unlike the arab countries that have done their house cleaning the US doesn't have a Dictator that can be ousted in the hopes that a new dawn will arise.  Our problem is more with a system dependent upon and corrupted by money and the lack of a leader who can rise above the partisan politics that is a product of our diverse citizenship that doesn't have a single value system anymore (other than "Greed is Good").  The right Minute that truly emanates from the Light and is annointed to awaken the hearts of those who are open to the Light might be the answer.  However, I don't think those who control the flow of money are open to the Light but tilting at windmills is a good thing in my mind.  The Impossible Dream is always worth living and dying for.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 11th mo. 14, 2011 at 12:11pm

Yes!

 

The way I see this movement: "We had been brought to despair by the futility of all our secular methods for healing the system; and now, God is doing a new thing!"

 

That is, God is embodied in this movement-- and can help keep it aligned with 'His' intention. But this requires us "staying awake"-- We need God's help to keep us turning toward God, and to guide our interactions with a movement that also needs the Spirit for its guidance.

Comment