Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 12:37pm

Describing unprogrammed Quaker worship involves lots of subtleties.  I remember when an elderly Ohio Yearly Meeting member, living her last days with her daughter in Charlottesville, came to quarterly meeting near Harrisonburg.  She remarked that she felt at home with the worship; it was what she had experienced for most of her life in Ohio.  I doubt that she could have gotten specific about what she resonated with, but I will try to identify some of the elements involved.  Give me some time to do it.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 1:18pm

I look forward to your description of the unprogrammed worship. I hope you will give your thoughts on the rest of the content in the post (containing the words of William Rogers) from which you chided my use of the word profound. Whenever you have the time, that is. 

Comment by Mackenzie on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:23pm

Ah! So that confirms what I suspected, then, that First Day School is a thing that exists in EFI and FUM (and by extension in joint FGC/FUM yearly meetings like mine) but not among Conservative Friends (and I'm not sure about pure-FGC)? 

(I suspected this based on it being something Gurney was a proponent of)

Or is there First Day School, but it's simply not during the same time as worship?

Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:38pm

I just deleted, by mistake, my first comment about traditional forms no longer practiced by most unprogrammed Friends.  I'll try to reconstruct it!

The old practice was for daily Bible reading and waiting worship, referred to by some Friends as "reading" (i.e., "It's time to "read".) and by Mennonites as "quiet time."  John Whitall, Hannah Whitall Smith's father, spent an hour each day in Bible reading and waiting worship.  And he was a very busy man, a Philadelphia industrialist, Orthodox Friends minister and organizer and leader of a weekly Bible school for poor children in Philadelphia.

Traditionalist Conservative Friends read a chapter from the Bible and waited upon the Lord in worship at both ends of the day.  This was particularly important for children.  It prepared them for Sunday meeting(s) for worship, traditionally attended by all and in the early days lasting for approximately two hours each.  A meeting often held worship on both Sunday morning and afternoon, as well as on Thursday or another midweek day.

We were startled when the high schoolers from the neighboring liberal meeting attended our worship, and told us that most of them had never sat through a whole Sunday meeting for worship!

So this is one difference.  I would be the first to note that many Conservative Friends no longer follow these practices.  When they don't, the children's restless behavior in worship makes this very obvious.

Comment by Mackenzie on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:39pm

I have your original post in my email notifications if you'd like me to paste it

Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:51pm

Another traditional practice concerns the behavior of worshippers in meetings for worship.  This is referred to by both Joseph S. Elkinton (I can't find the passage where he discussed this) and by Phebe Hall in the booklet she wrote, which was subsequently published by Ohio Yearly Meeting.  I will refer to this by Joseph Elkinton's term, "digging".

It often becomes obvious in a meeting for worship if the body of worshippers other than the ministering Friends is earnestly seeking the Lord, or if they are content to sit back and wait for the ministering Friends to do the hard spiritual work for them.  If the body of worshippers is not in spiritual earnest, the work of the ministers is much harder and the quality of the meeting is likely to be less satisfactory.

This is a very subtle difference, but quite noticeable by discerning Friends.

Comment by Mackenzie on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:55pm

I visited a conservative Mennonite church (Beachy) recently, and one of the women there said that entrusting the children's religious education to someone else was a problem for them. She said traditionally they've done as you say--had the parents handle the kids' religious education--but some have started sending their kids to "Christian schools" with the potential result that parents are getting lazy about teaching their children. She said she knew one family (this might've been her children and grandchildren) where several siblings sent their kids to Christian schools while one sent the kids to public schools. She said if the children in the public schools know their Bible better than the ones in the Christian schools, well, that'll show the parents who sent the kids to Christian schools have been lax about checking and reinforcing what they're learning. So, the way she sees it, the public school kids are providing incentive for the other kids to make sure they study hard so they're not shown up!

Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:56pm

Mackenzie: I would be happy to see the original post.  I don't know if it would be better or worse than the second attempt, but that would interesting to see.  I am writing about somewhat deep matters, and grope for words.  I do have a whole paper on traditional Quaker worship, but haven't read it recently.

So, feel free to post the original.

Thanks!

Comment by Mackenzie on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 4:57pm

Here's the original post:

A Few Comments About Traditional Unprogrammed Orthodox Quaker Spiritual Disciplines:

One of the forms or rituals practiced traditionally by Conservative and other Orthodox Friends is daily Bible reading and waiting worship.  John Whitall, Hannah Whitall Smith's father was an evangelical-learning Philadelphia Friend and an industrialist.  He made a habit of spending an hour in Bible reading and silent waiting upon the Lord on a daily basis, and he was a very busy man.

Conservative Friends of the traditionalist variety  usually read a chapter from the Bible at both ends of the day, followed by a time of waiting worship.  This is very important, particularly for children.

Where it is a regular family ritual, children come to communal worship already clued in about what will happen, and they tend to be well behaved.

Among traditional Friends, it was customary for children to attend the whole meeting for worship, rather than only part of it.  And, on Sundays, there were in the old days two meetings for worship, each for approximately two hours in duration.

I can remember one occasion on which the high schoolers from the liberal meeting attended our meeting for worship.  We were dumbfounded when they told us afterward that most of them had never before attended a Sunday meeting for worship in its entirety.  In the Conservative meeting, attending the full meeting for worship was common practice for all ages.

So, this is one "form" characteristic of traditional un[programmed Christian Friends that is not practiced by liberal Friends, or even by many acculturated Conservative Friends.

Comment by William F Rushby on 10th mo. 26, 2015 at 5:07pm

Thanks, Mackenzie!

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