Comment by Forrest Curo on 2nd mo. 10, 2014 at 4:17pm

Yes, but do you and God like to play in this world of 'His' together?

I have a friend who comes over and plays games with us sometimes. The games require some thinking, but mainly they're a fidget we can occupy ourselves with while we simply enjoy being with each other.

Have you found/would you want anything analogous?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 2nd mo. 10, 2014 at 5:58pm

Hello Forest. Thank you for query. I'm not sure if this piece I wrote back in September address your questions directly:

http://ripplesinthequiet.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-witness-playing-wit...

Comment by Forrest Curo on 2nd mo. 10, 2014 at 7:08pm

Interesting piece.

My own brief insight was somewhat different, in that I'd just smoked a joint and was reading a Scientific American article on 'consciousness' -- knowing that the author hadn't a clue, but wanting to see what he would say, and why it wasn't about what I meant, but merely the external symptoms of consciousness.

Thinking about what it "really" is, I suddenly "saw" it. I sent the author a postcard; and when he was in town we had dinner together at a good Chinese restaurant. He did things with my metaphors that baffled me for awhile -- but we never did quite see eye to eye. It's so elusive to talk about, and so very much 'clear', 'simple' when you 'see'.

One of Blake's sayings: "Eternity is in love with the productions of time." I feel strongly that that is true also.

Comment by Olivia on 2nd mo. 11, 2014 at 8:57am

hello keith!

one wants to communicate with plenty of long silences, after such a post. 

i apologize for the limitations of the form which make it hard for this to appear.

(long silence)

(picturing us sitting on a porch somewhere overlooking the appalachian mountains)

alright.....      so....  

i believe i know something of the feeling you speak of when you say "In the Presence, we know the mystery in a pure consciousness and conscience, anchored and informed, by direct and immediate experience of the Spirit of Christ within. This faith and trust in the immediacy of the Presence is salvation and eternal life. It is the realm of God on earth."

i experienced my own version of that most strongly at a time when i was doing much christ-centered meditation and long, slow walks.   i think of that as "the best time i ever had" -- the love, the unity, the clarity...

i also associate that time with "it was hard to hold a job."

how was i supposed to sense all that, and sit at a desk where the phone rings and whenever it happens to ring, i answer it?        how was i supposed to sense all that and yet when visitors come by the office i talk to them about membership benefits of the organization i worked for?  okay so it was a recycling organization, so it had integrity and simplicity.  but nevertheless, being "on call" and needing to work for a living seemed sort of impossible when one was in THAT flow.     is that something that you are having experience of too?

i experienced  that i had a definite gift for how to handle SOME of the office dynamics that came up:  had a profound amount of insight into others' behavior and a lack of reaction to others' drama, just staying centered, grounded, and guided.   but i definitely felt unable to be "on call" or "work for" someone else from that state. i guess because i was already working for something else and was on call to that!  there was no way to pop in and out of that Presence.  it was just cultivated and then affected everything. 

i would say to God "i have to be able to make a living, you know?"  

and i actually did.  and it was actually not selfish to need that. i took care of a loved one, and i myself was not well and needed love and care and good nutrition and health supports.  

so...

that experience of mine was about 15 years ago.   a lot has happened since then and i can still identify the state you speak of and aspire to it.      but also i have discovered God working in ways in my life that really crack me up, honestly.   i was allll about Spirit, and God has basically given me a discipline that goes something like this / saying this to me:   "if you want ALL THAT, you are going to have to do the healthy version now....   and here's how to be grounded, and why to be grounded...and what it's like to be IN your body...and why that matters...."

and i find that now i am steadily told that the mystical path will be available to me and healthy for me only to the extent that i also do the bookkeeping.  yes, i am doing bookkeeping.   i am the most liberal arts, non bookkeeper sort imaginable, but i kept learning that the terms for the great woo woo Spirit i loved were that i work with being here now in this body, and let my focus be on doing that better, not communing with spirit better.   that apparently i had covered.  so now, i work for a church but i'm a bookkeeper.  i work with debits and credits.  inane, systematic, Earthy work of making sure that people use this system so that it makes sense, their financials are solid, etc.   the terms for me have been that i can have all that mysticism in direct proportion to what amount of groundedness i also create in my life.  the mundane and the healthy and God) in the minutae of having this body, needing a job, needing to have relationships with others, etc.  

as someone once told me "God is not just 'up there' but down here too," pointing into the earth.    southern U.S. folks have a phrase for people like us -- "too heavenly minded to be any earthly good!"   well that's about me anyway, and i am wondering what your experience has been with being here on earth and being more about the physical endeavors than all that spirit you exude!

i believe we do our best work on a foundation.   i'm not of the gnostic view that we are to be all about Spirit to the exclusion of body and functioning in the here and now of our society.   i feel more that our body is our Spirit reflected back to us, our need for money is our Spirit also reflected back to us, our need for friendships and food on the table and solid things, are also ways that our Spirit is being shown to us.   

what has been your experience of being able to do these things like eat your vegetables, have friends, be comfortable in your job, etc?     i don't often have the opportunity to ask someone this who seems to have been "in the zone" that i have experienced of that God-wonder....

Comment by Keith Saylor on 2nd mo. 12, 2014 at 5:32am

Dear Olivia,

Here is a personal anecdote. I currently live on the south coast of Oregon. I am from Michigan where I spent most of my life. Sometimes, I go back to Michigan for a few months contracting upholstery in the Upper Peninsula. I also spend much time observing and studying lichen and the nesting behavior of wild birds. 

Last year, while doing upholstery in St Ignace, Michigan, I observed a species of lichen called Evernia prunastri (Oakmoss Lichen) growing on some spruce trees in a cemetery outside of town. It happens that this lichen was thought "extirpated" from Michigan as it had not been observed since around 1970s. BTW, this species of lichen is commonly observed in the western US and Europe. Here's an image of one of the individual I observed in Michigan.

Also, here's a link to my online photo documentation of the observation:

http://kfsaylor.blogspot.com/2013/06/evernia-prunastri-in-michigan....

Anyway, on the day I first located the lichen, I was standing with my face up right up against a tree trunk and a  loupe (a small magnifying instrument often used by coin and stamp collectors) up to my eye looking at this wonderful and beautiful lichen along with the various other lichens growing with it on the bark of the tree. 

Suddenly, from behind me, I heard this gruff voice say, "What the hell are you doing!"

I startled me something fierce and I turned to see this very old man right behind me.

"You've been standing here for almost an hour." he said.

"My wife and I were wondering if you are okay and what you are doing?"

They were in another part of the cemetery putting flowers on a gravestone. It turns out they were watching me stand, with my face up against a tree, for nearly an hour and the man's wife was unnerved by this crazy person "kissing" (her word) a tree for an hour's time! 

This is the outward me. Generally, I keep to myself and fill my days with relatively solitary activities and occupations. I have been self-employed for the whole of my life, except when very young. I love doing contract upholstery for other companies because I can focus on the work rather than customer relations. This is not to say I don't enjoy people, it is just to say solitude is my outward habit.

You wrote:

i experienced my own version of that most strongly at a time when i was doing much christ-centered meditation and long, slow walks.   i think of that as "the best time i ever had" -- the love, the unity, the clarity...

i also associate that time with "it was hard to hold a job."

how was i supposed to sense all that, and sit at a desk where the phone rings and whenever it happens to ring, i answer it?        how was i supposed to sense all that and yet when visitors come by the office i talk to them about membership benefits of the organization i worked for?  okay so it was a recycling organization, so it had integrity and simplicity.  but nevertheless, being "on call" and needing to work for a living seemed sort of impossible when one was in THAT flow.     is that something that you are having experience of too?

I understand the experience you are pointing toward. However, my struggle has been to balance my love for the study and observation of the natural world with my upholstery work. Also, there was a time when the sanctuary I sought in church activities or group bible study conflicted with my work and family responsibilities. 

Beyond that, and this is more to the point, there was a time when outward activities dimmed the Presence within me. That is, the Presence would become hidden behind the outward things I was doing. For example, if my truck broke down, the turning of my mind toward fixing the truck would most often lead to my turning my focus my the Presence. This has been a lifelong struggle and I became more and more mindful of it as I grew older. It has been the burden I have carried most of my life. There was even I time when I turned from the Presence consciously and with deliberation because I did not have faith in the power of the Spirit of Christ within to sustain. But the intention did not last. The constant and daily and hourly experience of turning my gaze from the Presence within and being enchanted by outward events, demands, responsibilities, etc., was spiritual training. It was a daily reminder to give all to the Christ, to invite the Presence in all these outward activities. To give all my outward things over to the Presence. 

There were times when I would go long stretches in the Presence and then get lost in the things of the world and to wake-up again. The most precious lesson I learned was not to judge myself. To not get lost in frustration and shame over not having enough faith. I learned to trust in the Presence, knowing the Spirit of Christ is there with me even when I get lost in the things of the world. 

Slowly, painfully slowly, agonizingly slowly, the Presence illuminated more and more of my consciousness and informed more and more informed my conscience as I embraced the "mystery of faith in a pure conscience."

Today, I am giving over most of my life to the Presence. When I do upholstery work, I am present in the Presence ... although sometimes I turn away. When I study lichen and birds, I am present in the Presence ... although sometimes I turn away. When I interact with people, I am present in the Presence. When I write (like right now) I am present in the Presence. When I eat, I am present in the Presence. You understand. 

To the point, the Presence is now focusing me when I work and eat and interact with people. The Presence is there in everything (mostly). I find sanctuary in the Presence when I garden, gardening in no longer a sanctuary. I find sanctuary in the Presence when working on a piece of furniture, upholstery is no longer a sanctuary. I find sanctuary in the Presence when I read the bible, the bible is no longer a sanctuary. I find sanctuary in the presence when I write, writing is no longer a sanctuary. I find sanctuary in the Presence while sitting on the porch and talking with folks, sitting on the porch and talking with folks in longer a sanctuary.

The renewal and turning of the mind toward the Presence of Christ is consciousness anchored in and conscience informed by the inward Light.

Finally, being "in the flow" in outward activities in the blessing of giving all things over to the Presence. The outward things of life no longer dam the "flow." Even the most mundane of daily tasks are embraced in the power of the Presence. 

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