Comment by James C Schultz on 3rd mo. 13, 2012 at 4:29pm

I believe God set out to create as many brothers and sisters for Jesus as possible with the materials at hand.  Like the Potter he sometimes has to discard pieces with a flaw.  Dependng on the flaw he can sometimes refashion them into a new vessel.  Some flaws ruin the entire vessel.  The materials themselves were created for many purposes and some can be recycled witout lost and others require a smelting process.  God will get the maximum out of the existing materials but that may require destroying some to purify others.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 13, 2012 at 6:10pm

Artists are like God.

That is, the ones who are really into it are engaged in a struggle with the material. The intention may be to arrive at a final product... but that struggle is the actual art.

Maybe you could just find a painting you liked, go out and buy it. Maybe you'd look at it once in awhile, after that.

But when you try to paint, with your ideas running one way and the paint running another, coming close to see details and backing off to figure out what it'll take to look right, brushes running dry or dripping, trying not to obliterate what you've gotten right-- and wondering what to do when two good pieces just don't fit together...

Maybe God just wants to paint pictures of Jesus. It doesn't look like what He's doing, though.

"Salvation," now. There's a word! Is it God we need to be "saved" from? Or isn't this really about learning to live with ourselves, so we can make/find life to be a good thing?

Comment by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 13, 2012 at 10:36pm

Another thing. The material God has to work with is God. There's nothing else. Whatever it may be-- so far as it truly exists, God has the Divine Fingers into it like a glove.

For God to put God's life into a being-- and then say, "Ooops! I really botched that one!"... and give up on that person, render it into spare parts--

That would be like giving up on yourself, like giving up on your child. And God knows you, far better than you know yourself or your child.

Sometimes I feel like I must be a real challenge. But a challenge for God? Maybe I can get arrogant; but that much arrogance would be beyond my capacity!

Comment by James C Schultz on 3rd mo. 14, 2012 at 8:36pm

I think the story of the Prodigal son might be appropriate to consider.  I think God's will is that all be saved but the free will thing supercedes His power and desire.

Comment by James C Schultz on 3rd mo. 14, 2012 at 8:43pm

Another thing.  i don't think God set out to achieve salvation for all humanity.  I think he set out to create as many sons and daughters as He could but that's just my opinion and I wouldn't want to use it as a premise for a conclusion.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 3rd mo. 14, 2012 at 9:44pm

Probably it's a heuristic issue-- ie, People who think they might end up in Hell might be inclined to try harder.

What I hear when I directly ask God about this-- goes against all that kind of speculation. The High Priest (in John) says that "It's expedient that one man should die for the People." Jesus is willing (if need be) to be that one man; but that kind of expediency is what marks the difference between Jesus and the authorities who hand him over.

That is, Jesus isn't willing to throw anybody away. He'll say, quite clearly, that one road leads to life and another one to perdition... but he isn't willing to leave anyone wandering out that way all alone . God, he says, would leave the whole flock, if need be, to go after any one of them who's lost.

That Prodigal Son story is a pretty good example. For a 1st Century Jewish son to ask for his share of the inheritance that way... is culturally equivalent to "Old man, I just can't wait for you to die." The son has irreparably shamed both his father and himself in the eyes of the whole community. After doing that, he's wandered off to an unclean land, has been forced to take orders from pagans, live with unclean animals, even to eat their food. [Jesus is alluding to the Exile, here... and nobody there to hear this story at the time is going to miss that.]

God's response is scandalous. Nobody would believe a 1st Century father would compromise his honor and dignity that way; the gossip would never end... I think most Christians would be blown away by understanding God's response, like the 'good' brother in the story. [That 'good' brother would symbolize the religious establishment, appalled to see anyone claim to speak for God-- while pointedly ignoring all the boundaries between themselves and the dregs of humanity..]

Nobody is "constrained" to obey God's will. But what opposes and frustrates that are the mechanical, habitual, compulsive elements of our souls. What is free, alive, creative in us-- is precisely God's will, is necessarily attuned to it.

Anybody want to go lie about in a pigsty, dining on swill? You're free to do so!

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