Comment by James C Schultz on 2nd mo. 27, 2014 at 5:17pm

As I see it the point of view is based on the writer's perception of how the "seed of Christ" operates.  If you share his opinion it's hard to argue with the conclusion.  Not sharing his opinion I don't believe activists show a lack of faith.  If anything those activists who are willing to sacrifice what i see as a short stay in this realm out of obedience to what they perceive as a calling or leading to act on Jesus' command to love their neighbor are operating out of faith.  Of course some activists just operate out of ignorance not realizing the consequences of their action(s) by failing to count the costs before going to war.

Comment by Olivia on 2nd mo. 27, 2014 at 9:12pm

Keith,

Sorry -- I was reading too fast earlier.  I see that you speak to why you don't want to use God language:

"Presence as purposeful and meaningful in itself. Presence is action. In Presence there is neither God or no God. Faith and Trust in Presence is the purpose and meaning, not in outward actions."

"To equate a consciousness anchored in and a conscience informed by Presence with the term God is to obfuscate or darken Presence in a contextual framework girded by baggage that is difficult, at best, to unpack. The term God is poisoned by abstract thought - outward ideas about God rather than direct experience; Presence."

You and I use the word "God" differently.   Then you feel clear that Presence is not synonymous with "God".  Which is unfortunate. 

To my thinking if Presence is not synonymous with God, then we've got the wrong God!

I say this as a profound vote for Presence.   God in the Bible in fact defines Him(Her) self as simply "I AM."

This little piece of mine here below is not worth anything as "poetry" but I've put it on my page as a deeply held conviction of part of what I mean by "God" and "Truth".... I wrote this down after meeting with a Buddhist "nontheist" scientist for conversation.  I had asked to talk with him because several times during meeting for worship I would get a very specific strong and clear feeling that that this person who identified as "nontheist" was communing in the silence with exactly what I was communing with.  For me it was God, so I thought:  if he is communing with exactly that but called himself a nontheist, I wanted to know more....    We talked a while since I was hoping to hit on exactly what the resonance was:  what would he speak of that was "God to me but "nontheist" whatever to him...      t was in that conversation that it eventually became clear that "listening awareness" was the thing we were each talking about.

" A Christmas (being born) tale:
In a talk between a nontheist, a Buddhist, a psychic, a scientist and
a Christian, these particular friends discovered that they had more in
common than they might have thought previously.   They discovered that
when they spoke of each of their leadings (when they spoke of no-god,
of Buddha, of science, of Christ, and of the unseen extrasensory world
of psychic phenomena), they were in each case talking about the same
thing:

the physical and real
Energy
of listening awareness, of stillness and surrender, of miracles and
love.

They did not know this when they were in their own beliefs -- in their
own thoughts about their beliefs -- but through listening to one another
it became clear.

It turns out that it DOES matter what you believe, but this doesn’t
mean what we once thought.  The truth is a narrow and uncompromising
path, but it is found everywhere.     You must follow it to the
letter, but only down the path it is calling YOU."

This was my way of trying to articulate what I see as this progressive truth.  No one is bound to seek the same way as anyone else in order for it to be the truth.  We just each have our own lens on what is a greater truth.  Since you like to head for its ultimate form you have identified it as Presence.   But I remain firm that if we think God is anything but that power and Presence, then we are mistaken. 

in peace

Comment by Keith Saylor on 2nd mo. 27, 2014 at 11:57pm

Yes Olivia ... as I've said before, you and I are not of the same mind and conscience. On that we are in agreement.

Comment by Olivia on 2nd mo. 28, 2014 at 11:50am

Wow -- so you're specifically saying with great emphasis that whatever you know of Presence is not God and that God is to you too small a concept or too small a reality to account for what you are experiencing?  Is that correct?

peace

Comment by Laura Scattergood on 2nd mo. 28, 2014 at 12:13pm

I just feel moved to say that it feels like Keith has had or is having an experience that there are no words for, or  and if there were words, paradoxically,  the experience can't be shared with words.  The attempt to do so is an unnecessary strain.  Even so, the person experiencing these things that there are no words for does often try to share it with others to no avail, which may cause the person to feel deeply isolated, not from the "Presence" but from the human community. I feel moved to just quietly accept Keith's testimonies and not pick them apart linguistically or theologically.  I feel the response I have for Keith is Amen or So Be It or the Irish prayer, Christ Above Me, Christ Below Me Christ Within Me, Christ Around Me, etc.  So Keith, my words fail me but I acknowledge your testimony and say in my humble human language Amen. 

Comment by Keith Saylor on 3rd mo. 1, 2014 at 7:17am

Dear Olivia. To the first part of your question, my answer is no, you are not correctly representing me. To the second part of your question, to the extent that God is an abstract conceptual or intellectual framework, yes you correctly representing me.

I asked you earlier whether you would support your contention that Jesus was a political activist by sharing examples of his political activism. Am I safe in concluding that you have no examples to support your contention?

Comment by Olivia on 3rd mo. 1, 2014 at 9:29am

Hello Keith,

You seem antagonistic....   I will respond to your request but only because you asked for this and not to stir up any more trouble with you.  I had written the following earlier but thought to not share it at the time since we had enough other material to talk about.  I can offer that I an making no "contention", just sharing experience and understandings as we all are here.   I can also offer that God is not an "abstract conceptual or intellectual framework" for me.  Here's what I had drafted earlier to the "political activism" question you'd asked me:

You asked me for examples of Jesus's political activism.  I don't think I'll try to convince you of anything on that point since you feel firmly of a different persuasion, but to me everything Jesus did was political(among other things)...     Again this comes down to what we each understand by the words we use.  I don't mean the same thing you do by "political". 

Jesus's life was filled with choices to be an activist for truth, and filled with telling deeply subversive parables and subversive comments against the dominant culture by using language that could mean multiple things, or that the hearer had to figure out which way to handle.... and he spoke in this way so he could get enough time to share the message instead of being hung from the start at the nearest tree. 

Also he made very clear positions about economy (the poor) and government and taxes, etc, etc,  though in whatever language could get his message across subtly and yet powerfully, allowing him time to really thrive and build this message up. 

For some  of us, being political can also just mean being alive and expressing ones' values in who and what we vote for, and who we let speak for us, and such things as that.  So in that view, of course being political is not a problem but a fact of being alive and speaking truth to power.  

You speak of the baggage that you associate with words like "God" and you seem to speak out of a similar baggage about the concept of "political activism".  You seem to think these are "concepts" not spiritual realities.  

You seem to be clear that these things should be dismissed outright.   However, a word's definition is not based on anyone's baggage about it.   Having baggage about a thing doesn't really qualify that view to define what the thing is.  I think in truth many of us will have different definitions of these concepts and their underlying realities, and different baggage or non-baggage about them.  We all have those.   I just don't think we can dismiss any of these concepts outright or try to define them to others based on this baggage of ours.

I would rather not fight with you over your beliefs any further.  I am simply sharing with you.  I would like you to feel that you have enough space for your viewpoints and I would also like to feel that I have room and validity, likewise, to have mine (without your condescension about them).  If you continue to speak in such black and white divisive ways that suggest that you have the answers we all need and we don't (as if God is not on-site with each of us already) that makes it hard for me to continue any dialogue.

in peace

Comment by Jim Wilson on 3rd mo. 1, 2014 at 11:17am

Friend Kieth:

I have enjoyed reading your post.  If I understand what you are saying, I tend to agree.  I have gradually had a realization that one of the things that liberal and evangelical Quakers share is a focus on activism.  They differ about the specifics of the activist agenda, but they are both heavily involved in politics, causes, and those kinds of outward activity.  Contemplation is seen as a means whereby one becomes a better activist rather than an end in itself. 

I think this heavy emphasis in the Quaker community on activism and political involvement is simply an example of how strongly political religion has become in American at this time.  I don't think it is radical or unusual.  I would argue that this kind of focus is, in fact, the norm in American religion these days.  Personally, I think that is unfortunate and would like to see Quakers turn to a more contemplative direction.  I believe that Quakers, during the period of quietism, were grounded in that focus, but that they have, for the most part lost it.  I don't know if it can be recovered.

Best wishes,

Jim

Comment by Keith Saylor on 3rd mo. 1, 2014 at 2:48pm

Dear Jim,

Contemplation is seen as a means whereby one becomes a better activist rather than an end in itself.

You have wrote better in one sentence what I have struggled to say in volumes of words. Bless you and I thank you from the depth of my consciousness and conscience for this cordial testimony. I hold you in the Light.

I am compelled to copy a message I typed to another in another thread for it shared the same sentiment I share with you:

Your words are savory to conscience and quench the mind by empowering the Spirit's presence within through intention. They are a blessing; for they speak to, manifest, and nourish my experience in the Light.

Your words brought to memory the land restoration work I've been a part of and specifically one project in Michigan. There is a fen in southern Michigan where Small White Lady's Slipper historically grew, however, a shrub plant species called Glossy Buckthorn (Rhamnus frangula) overran and altered the natural community, even impacting the natural water levels so that the lady's slipper could no longer thrive. We spent three years removing the Buckthorn. On the third year, in early Spring, a prescribed fire regime was introduced to further assist the removal of Buckthorn and to help this natural community mend and restore. Weeks later, with the ground still charred by fire, hundreds of Small White Lady's Slippers burst forth from the soil casting a flowery blanket across the fen! The lady slipper seed bank lay dormant awaiting the fen's return to a naturally functioning ecosystem. Standing and experiencing this miracle I wept in wonder and joy.

Your words brought to the forefront of my mind this experience. Here are a couple images of the resurrected flowers.

 

 

Blessings in the Light,

Keith

Comment by Keith Saylor on 3rd mo. 3, 2014 at 1:17am

I am grateful to all who have shared their thought on this thread. I am still seeking of find and refine  my words on this matter. Here is another offering even as things are still distilling.

Political Activism is advocating for and the process of relinquishing the individual freedom of conscience guided in Presence (spiritual governance) and empowering external political (governmental) institutions to impose the outcomes of spiritual experiences through a faith in consciousness anchored in and conscience informed by direct experience of Presence. These inward fruits of  immediate Presence include individually experienced peace, equality, justice, freedom, etc. The advocacy for and process of empowering external institutions over against individual conscience in Presence misplaces and disconnects the fruit from the source. The political activist abstracts the experience of Peace, for example, impersonalizing it and artificially containing it in outward forms. These outward institutions, and the bureaucracies that animate them, then set out to impose peace (for example) outside of the source of peace: a consciousness anchored in and a conscience informed by the personally experienced immediacy of Present.

Political activism averts and deprecates faith in the immediacy of Presence. Instead of advocacy for and affirmation of sustained consciousness anchored in and conscience informed by Presence and trusting in the activity of the presence of Christ within each individual to manifest the fruits of Presence, political activists place faith in the force of outward institutions filled with and informed by the ideals artificially abstract from their source and impose an outward conscience against the free conscience and worship informed by the inward light.

Imagine, for example, if instead of advocating for and empowering government to rule over matters of sexual preference trusted sustained Presence. Imagine if, instead of empowering outward institutions to impose a conscience against same sex relationships, a trust in sustained Presence. Imagine if, instead of empowering outward institutions to impose a conscience accepting of same sex relationships, a faith in sustained Presence. It is one thing to acknowledge a conscience for or against same sex relationships. It is another to advocate for the empowerment of outward institutions to outwardly enforce a particular conscience on those who are not of the same mind and conscience. Imagine a faith in the immediacy of Presence in and of itself.

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