Comment by Keith Saylor on 9th mo. 10, 2016 at 7:28am

Hello Forrest,

You wrote:

"Pay no attention to organizational arrangements that produce widespread, needless suffering, because you can't fix these effectively until everyone is relying on their connection to the Spirit within for their sense of who they be & what to do..."

Again, Thank you for your response. It is helpful to read how my testimony is recieved by you; especially when it is not embraced.

Over all, I take no issue with your words concerning the nature of my recommendation. However, what I recommend goes much further than you suggest. I do not only recommend withdrawing from those outward organizational arrangements that produce suffering; I recommend withdraw from the process of creating, fixing, and turning toward outward organizational arrangements altogether ... period.

I suggest the process of trusting in and identifying with outward organizational arrangements is the problem in itself. Outward organizational arrangements altogether, the seeming good and the seeming bad, are the problem. The very act of intellectually creating and instituting them to arrange and manage human relationships is a disfunction and the resulting outward organizations will always manifest that disfunction. There is no way out of this loop of disfunction by training the rational and intellectual mind upon it.

You wrote:

"I don't agree with your apparent belief that there's a one-size-fits-all ideal way of connecting with God's presence or experiencing it ..."

Yes, we disagree here. I recommend to all humanity that; unless human being embrace the direct guidance of the inshining Light in their conscience and conscience and by that embracement experience the withdraw of trust in the intellect to arrange human relationships, the loop of distortional and disfunctional outward organizational arrangement will not be broken. The harder human beings press their intellect and rational mind to resolve the loop, the more they nurture it.

It is the embracement of the direct guidance of the inshining Light that is complete in itself to guide human relationships, that can only break the circuit or loop. So yes, it is my testimony based upon my witness that the spirit of Christ inshining in the conscious and conscience is the only way out. This testimony is not founded upon a "belief", as you say. It is founded upon the direct experience of immanent Presence itself in itself. In the presence of the spirit of Christ I am guided in my relations with other people.

You wrote:

"Persuading people to turn to any form of spirituality -- as an alternative to removing their present pains -- is simply unlikely to move many people except to barf. Dealing with the pains alone is as you say, a temporary fix at best."

I am not in the business of persuading people to turn to a spiritual form. I recommend to people to withdraw from turning to any spiritual form. I go even further to suggest it is the turning to spiritual forms or any outward organizational arrangement that is the source of their pain. I recommend the inward Light in their conscience is complete in itself to resolve their condition and restore their life. Yes, even their condition of hunger. The spirit of Life within will address all people's needs if they but withdraw in their mind and conscience from trust in the outward organizational arrangements created, sustained, nurtured, and fixed by the intellect of men and women.

You wrote:

"So I think we'll need to work on all the intractible problems together ..."

I recommend we need to come into, embrace, and nurture, the direct guidance of immanent Presence itself in itself in our conscience and conscious and all those intractable problems will be resolved; otherwise, the problems will persist no matter how hard we try to work together.





Okay, Fine. So how does this work out literally here an earth? When immanent Presence itself in itself becomes the arranger of human relations, outward organisational arrangements are literally bypassed. There is no documentation supporting when Jesus Christ walked physically on this earth that he set up outward organizational arrangements to feed people. The Gospels record he feed and healed independent of any and all outward organizational arrangements. He feed them as a matter of his being and outside the political, social, religious, and economic conventions fashioned by the intellect of men. Then, it is recorded that Jesus said he must go away ; no longer manifest in the physical body, and that he must leave so the Comforter will come to all people. The Comforter did come again and it is come again. The Comforter is now within all people. It is established in the conscience and conscious; which is its throne. From that throne it now works as Jesus Christ once worked in the physical body. When people turn to and live in direct communion with the inward Comforter, they are arranged directly in the Spirit without regard to outward organizational arrangements which are expired and replaced in immanent Presence itself. The inshining Spirit bypasses outward organisational arrangements fashioned through the intellect. In the Immanent Presence, there is no need to even participate in the fashioning and nurturing of outward organizational arrangements because to do so is to usurp and shadow over immanent Presence itself in itself and its prerogative to arrange human relations directly and completely without regard to outward political, religious, social, and economic, traditions and arrangements that overshadow and usurp the Throne and Rule of immanent Presence itself in itself in the conscience and conscious of men and women.

Some will say that the inward spirit works through people by leading them to establish outward organizational arrangements. I recommend to all people against following that that suggestion. The direct experience of and participation in Immanent Presence in the conscious and conscience in itself leads people out of the process of building and nurturing outward organization arrangements. To turn to them is to be led back into that very process Immanent Presence replaces. Today, because of immanent Presence inshining into the conscious and conscience of men and women, the inward Spirit takes on that role of bypassing outward political, religious, social, and economic arrangements established, for example, to feed people in need that Jesus once manifested while walking physically on this earth. The Spirit itself in itself will feed the needs of people directly and completely, without outward organizational arrangements, by moving and arranging people directly through the relative increase and decrease of the inward Light. This inward prompting of people acting under and arranged by the Spirit itself in itself is human being that is arranged without meditation through outward organizational arrangements. The is the revolution of the inward immanent Presence of the Spirit of Christ which is complete in itself to care for people and arrange human relations.

When I share this message on the street to political activists, social agitators, and social warriors of all outward organizational arrangements, there are those who literally lash out in anger and there are those who receive the message cordially and actually see with the eye of the Spirit the revolutionary nature of a life and human relations arranged directly and completely by the inward Spirit itself. Either way they are often quaked to the foundation of their being as the ramifications of this inward revolution shows clearly in their conscious an conscience.

Finally, I write this not to argue with or persuade you. I write this response merely to further clarify what it is I recommend and to affirm, all in all, you seem to understand what I recommend even though we disagree. Where you find me wearing blindfolds, I find the blindfolds lifted through the power of immanent Presence itself inshining into and throughout my conscious and conscience.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 10, 2016 at 11:09am

Keith, it sounds like you're saying people should all turn their backs on their mental endeavors, be that flying or designing airplanes, constructing high rises, tilling the fields or whatever. 

On the other hand, if the Inward Presence leads someone to perform as a brain surgeon or bus driver, then who's to say they're not in a state of immanence same as you?

If you're sitting in judgement, thinking "that person can't be governed by the immanent Presence because they're using outward tools" (such as writing in QuakerQuaker), then I'm confused. 

Certainly you participate in outward forms, just as everyone does.  You listen to music and drink beer.  That already implies vast industry and horticulture, people doing outward things, operating within institutions.

Suggesting people all turn their backs on the intellect and outward forms just doesn't seem like useful advice in a world of close to eight billion people all working to get through each day, one day at a time.  Wouldn't following your advice lead to mass starvation and chaos?  If not, please explain.

Probably one of our most important outward forms is the clock and calendar, a shared "wheel of time" whereby we're able to make appointments, schedule stuff, plan.  We plan against the backdrop of a calendar.  Is that something the immanent Presence would never have us do in your experience?  Jesus was telling us to throw away (not make any use of) our ability to schedule?  How would we keep the Sabbath in that case?

As you probably know, QuakerQuaker may not be long for this world and all your outward forms (words) contributed here will likely be gone soon.  I'd think an exercise in not participating in outward forms would be to staunch the flow of your outward words and allow your testimony to stop vibrating the outward airwaves.  How do you justify all this outward form activity, in light of your testimony?

It sounds like you're recommending we each dig a grave and fall into it, whispering our praises to Jesus as we do so.  But then a grave is an outward form.  When do we ever get out of bed in your scenario?  What's the science fiction if millions of people were suddenly to follow your advice?  Would we still have electricity?  Don't feel you have to reply.  That would be participating in outward forms.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 9th mo. 10, 2016 at 12:24pm

Fantastic! Thank you for your response Kirby. Your criticism of my testimony is valid and deserves a considered response. I will settle into the quiet feeling for the foundation before responding. I do feel open, however, to highlight the important qualifying phrase I intentionally used in my last response. It goes something like this ... "using the intellect or rational mind to arrange and manage human being." I also remind you that I am a naturalist as well as an upholsterer. I do acknowledge a role for the intellect and rational mind. Thank you again, your valid and welcome criticism will help advance the discussion. I look forward to posting my response and your consideration.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 10, 2016 at 12:51pm

If there were 'no Spirit present in it' nothing whatsoever would be happening at all -- no physical bodies (unneeded), emotions, or intellect. Not even an 'us' to experience any of it.

Aside from Isaid/hesaid, everything we know comes down to life within forms that get their vitality (or if they don't, become deadened & 'mechanical' in the bad sense) from the Spirit's continuing participation in maintaining them.

Becoming disembodied is not superior to remaining embodied; becoming apathetic is no improvement on having emotional pleasures & pains -- (though trying to feel, or to not feel what the Spirit brings us is clearly wasted effort), turning off the intellect is no better than relying on it unduly.

When Anne & I helped out at the food line, people brought whatever they'd been accustomed to bringing, more if we'd nearly run out the last time. The same people did this because we had the routine down. The same ex-Marine stood around being 'Not-security' and the hungry people mostly behaved just fine (& most all the time would have anyway. We did this the same days & the same times because that's how people knew to find us (including the police, who sympathized but did work for people who didn't.) We didn't ask people who showed up to help 'How come?'

Comment by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 10, 2016 at 1:17pm

By the way, Keith, I would certainly classify trying to get the bulk of the population to rely on "direct guidance of immanent Presence itself" among those intractable problems I was referring to -- and did not mean "work on them all together" as "all of us get together to work on them" but rather to mean "[whoever is so led] follow that guidance so as to work on the whole kitten-kaboodle."

[For someone relying on Spirit to guide you, you sometimes seem inexplicably touchy towards statements which were not, in fact, contradicting your apparently intellectually-held position. (I don't object to you holding that position, but find holding it while denying reliance on any such mental fortifications a bit inconsistent.]

Comment by Keith Saylor on 9th mo. 12, 2016 at 2:31pm

Hello Kirby,

I appreciate that you've taken the time to query me and to criticize my testimony to that which witness. I commonly recieve such criticism when I give testimony to my witness to those engaged in political activism from all sides of the political spectrum. I welcome the challenge of sharing the inward testimony using outward linguistic forms among those who by their own admission gain meaning, purpose, and identity, in and through out forms. There is an essential difference between sharing a testimony using outward language to recommend withdrawing from dependence on outward forms than testifying to the value of and affirming outward forms. I used to struggle with the seeming contradiction. However, I no longer struggle with it because I have experienced how the mere outward testimony against outward forms and the recommendation to withdraw from outward political, religious, social, and economic, organizational arrangements has both affected and disaffected people. I am encouraged by the negative and positive reactions because I am not invested in either reaction. That is, I am not invested in outcomes; I do not presume to rule over the conscience of another by persuasion. It is not mine to persuade or convince. It is mine to recommend and leave it to the conscience of the hearer as to whether their is validity to the recommendation. So if, in good conscience you find my recommendation invalid and contradictory, I want you to know I honor your conscience. However, I will continue to share my testimony for the sake of conscience.

I have settled down into immanent Presence over the content of your message to me.

Your Paragraph One:
"Keith, it sounds like you're saying people should all turn their backs on their mental endeavors, be that flying or designing airplanes, constructing high rises, tilling the fields or whatever. "

I recommend that people withdraw from anchoring their conscious and informing their conscience through outward intellectual forms. that is, I recommend that immanent Presence itself in itself become the source of meaning, purpose, and identity without regard to the mental endeavors a person may find themselves engaged in at the moment.

So, for example, I spend much of my life observing outward natural forms; specifically lichen forms and the nesting habits a wild birds. Three years ago, while studying lichen forms in Michigan, I identified and documented a lichen previously thought extirpated in Michigan. Here is a link to my online documentation:

http://kfsaylor.blogspot.com/2013/06/evernia-prunastri-in-michigan....

At one time in my life observing natural forms was a source of meaning, purpose, and identity. The act of participation in observing these outward forms anchored my conscious and guided my conscience. Other outward forms and organizational arrangements also anchored my conscious and informed my conscience and I would have readily and consciously admitted that to be the case.

I still observe and study outward natural forms. However, this activity is no longer a source of meaning, purpose, and identity in this world. My conscious has withdrawn from them and most other outward forms and organizational arrangements as anchoring and directing my life. The direct and unmediated immanent Presence of the inshining Light is replacing all outward forms and organizational arrangements as anchor and guide especially concerning human relationships.

I also recommend that people turn to immanent Presence itself in itself as sufficient and complete in itself to arrange and organize human relationships without regard to outward intellectual forms designed to arrange and organized human relationships.

Paragraph Two:
"On the other hand, if the Inward Presence leads someone to perform as a brain surgeon or bus driver, then who's to say they're not in a state of immanence same as you?"

It is certainly the case that a person can perform brain surgery in immanent Presence itself. As I have written numerous times my recommendation to withdraw from outward forms as their anchor and guide is to those who admit they are informed by outward forms. I have testified to hundreds of people who specifically admit their meaning, purpose, and identity is anchored in outward forms and organizational arrangements.

Paragraph Three:
"If you're sitting in judgement, thinking "that person can't be governed by the immanent Presence because they're using outward tools" (such as writing in QuakerQuaker), then I'm confused."

No, I am not sitting in judgement. I do recommend that people let immanent Presence itself in itself become the tool in itself rather than using outward tools of organizational arrangements regarding human relations. I accept there are people who use the tools of outward organisational arrangements to guide their partcipation in immanent Presence. With that said, I recommend against it, however, it is a recommendation only.

Paragraph Four:
"Certainly you participate in outward forms, just as everyone does.  You listen to music and drink beer.  That already implies vast industry and horticulture, people doing outward things, operating within institutions."

I have addressed this above

Paragraph Five
"Suggesting people all turn their backs on the intellect and outward forms just doesn't seem like useful advice in a world of close to eight billion people all working to get through each day, one day at a time.  Wouldn't following your advice lead to mass starvation and chaos?  If not, please explain."

Yes, I recommend that people turn to immanent Presence itself in itself and withdraw from outward political, religious, social, and economic, forms or organizational arrangements. I do not fear a life anchored in and informed by immanent Presence itself in itself without regard to outward forms and organisational arrangements. It is the outward forms and organisational arrangements that are the cause of the current mass starvation and chaos human being suffers under today and historically. It is like you are suggesting that the current admitted way of being anchored in and informed by outward forms and organizational arrangements is devoid of mass starvation and chaos? When human being no longer anchors meaning, purpose, and identity in the context of outward organisational arrangements and, in that withdrawing, anchor the conscious and informs the conscience through the inshining Light a immanent Presence, then there will be peace and everyone will know their fill.

Paragraph Six:
"Probably one of our most important outward forms is the clock and calendar, a shared "wheel of time" whereby we're able to make appointments, schedule stuff, plan.  We plan against the backdrop of a calendar.  Is that something the immanent Presence would never have us do in your experience?  Jesus was telling us to throw away (not make any use of) our ability to schedule?  How would we keep the Sabbath in that case?"

In immanent Presence, the outward calendar, set times, and planning in accord to those time are becoming of less and less value.

The keeping of the Sabbath in immanent Presence is a daily and moment by moment way of being. Immanent Presence is a way of being and in that way of being or consciousness there is no need for outwardly set organizational arrangements. In immanent Presence itself in itself the Sabbath is in all things, times, moments, places, etc. We keep the Sabbath in the very experience of immanent Presence.

Paragraph Seven:
"As you probably know, QuakerQuaker may not be long for this world and all your outward forms (words) contributed here will likely be gone soon.  I'd think an exercise in not participating in outward forms would be to staunch the flow of your outward words and allow your testimony to stop vibrating the outward airwaves.  How do you justify all this outward form activity, in light of your testimony?"

As I wrote above, I justify using outward forms to testify to those who admit their conscious and conscience is anchored in and informed by outward forms that there is a way of being wherein the conscious and conscience is no longer informed by and anchored in outward political, religious, social, and economic organizational arrangements. I use a bit of outward forms to recommend another way that bypasses dependence on these organizational arrangements.

Paragraph Eight:

"It sounds like you're recommending we each dig a grave and fall into it, whispering our praises to Jesus as we do so.  But then a grave is an outward form.  When do we ever get out of bed in your scenario?  What's the science fiction if millions of people were suddenly to follow your advice?"

Yes, in a very literal way coming into immanent Presence itself as sufficient and complete guide and anchor is to live through the crucification of the body and outward organizational arrangements and to be born again into a completely different way of existence on this earth ... Heaven ... guided inwardly through the mystery of a conscious and a conscience anchored and informed by the inshining Light itself in itself.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 12, 2016 at 3:01pm

I talked to an ambulance driver/medic in Sacramento back ~early 70's.

His story was about a recent LSD trip of his... during which he became concerned about the young woman next door, walked in (many people didn't lock their doors back then) and found that she'd taken a suicidal dose of some sedative. His training equipped him quite well for this kind of situation; he dialed 911 and set immediately to doing all the appropriate first-aid procedures.

While he was doing this, he was simulataneously 'seeing' himself floating in pursuit of her up a long astral tunnel towards death. He caught up to her and led her back as he was completing his first-aid measures.

?

Comment by Keith Saylor on 9th mo. 13, 2016 at 6:02am

Hello Forrest,

"... everything we know comes down to life within forms that get their vitality (or if they don't, become deadened & 'mechanical' in the bad sense) from the Spirit's continuing participation in maintaining them."

I know and accept that is what you speak. I speak of a different knowing and a different participation.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 13, 2016 at 9:56am

Thanks for going through my devil's advocacy briefing with a fine toothed comb Keith, and responding to each point.  I think you'll continue to offer readers a viable alternative to anyone in a bully pulpit telling them how they've gotta think and obey. Such outward forms are for losers, basically.  But then compassion kicks in and testimony such as yours is shared, balancing our tendency to get lost in what's less than immanent.  Keep up the good work.

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