Comment by Kirby Urner on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 10:44am

Only in others, not in oneself.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 11:48am

This discussion reminded me of George Fox's response to Christopher Wades book "Quakery Slain" written in 1657. In Fox's "The Great Mystery of the Great Whore Unfolded ..." he writes:

"P. He [Wade] saith, ' Christ hath not appeared unto the saints in his second coming to them, much less in them.'

A. [Fox] Contrary to the apostle's doctrine, Col. ii. And Christ said, he would dwell in them. And the apostle said, the son of God was come. And Christ said, he would come again to the apostles, which he did, according to his word; and God did dwell in them, and walk in them. And John in his epistle said, the son of God was come.

P. And he saith, ' The saints are not as Christ is.'

A. So he denies John's doctrine, who said, ' As he is, so are we in this present world.'

P. And he saith, the righteous man sins seven times a day; and that David nor no man living was justified in the sight of God at any time, so long as he was a living man upon earth ; and that the prophets were not made free from sin.

A. There is no scripture that saith, a righteous man sins seven times a day; and David said his sins were removed from him as far as the east is from the west, and yet thou sayst, David was never at any time free from sin, of having sin in him while he was upon the earth. And God said, ' I have found David a man after my own heart, fulfilling all my will.' So here he was justified. And the apostle said in Rom. vi. that they were made free from sin, and were justified by faith in Christ Jesus. 

P. He saith: ' Paul was not made free from all sin.'

A. Paul said he had ' kept the faith,' he had kept that which purifies, and gives victory over sin; and yet he goes about to disprove Paul's words, and saith, ' Paul had sin when he had finished his course.' So his great work is to prove the saints sinners, but they witness against him. And he charges Job, Paul, and David with sin, whom God jus tified, and said, ' Job did not sin with his mouth.' And though Paul did cry out of the body of sin, yet he found victory over the body of sin, and knew the redemption which the creatures waited for, the 'liberty of the sons of God;' and said, they were ' made free from sin,' in Rom. vi. and they were 'justified from all things;' and by the one offering for ever he had sanctified. Because the Quakers own the light Christ, and are come into the spirit that gave forth scriptures, and have heard the voice of the son of God, and deny all them that say they have not heard the voice of the son of God, and Christ to be in them; therefore he saith, 'they have forsaken the truth;' because they deny them that have the form, and are out of the life, and despise and deny the power that shakes that which is to be shaken; for no one knows salvation but by the light.

P. He said, ' God did not come in his spiritual essence with his son on the earth.' And saith, ' that God the Father was not in his spirit with his son upon the earth.'

A. The scripture saith, ' The fulness of the godhead dwelt in him bodily;' and the Father is in the son, and the son is in the Father, ' I in thee, and thou in me ;' so he was not alone, but the Father was with him.

P. He saith, ' The Quakers are lying deluders, in saying the king dom of heaven is within them. '

A. That is contrary to Luke xvii. which saith, 'The kingdom of heaven is within you.'

P. ' And he hath not heard of any other people in the world taught immediately by Christ, but the Quakers.'

A. And the two witnesses, as he calls them, he brings against truth, who opposed truth in London: so showing where he and all people are, who are taught by a mediate use of the scriptures ; all may judge where that is. And the devil rules such that are from the immediate; and all that are not taught immediately, are not taught by God, nor by his spirit.

P. 'This sort of people are for immediate revelation, and it is dan gerous for any man to trust to immediate revelations, and preach Christ within man.' And 'the two witnesses preached Christ without.' And this he saith, ' is a hellish snare to please every man's palate.'

A. And thus he may charge all the people of the Lord who were taught, and are taught of the Lord. And thus he fights against those that were taught immediately ; and his teachings, and man's teachings, are mediate, and they are in the snare that are out of the immediate teaching; and all that know God and the son, are taught immediately by the spirit that is immediate. And so it is not a very strange thing that he should give forth so many ill-savoured railing expressions, of which his book is stuffed full, against the people of God; his work in it is to charge the elect with sin, but we say, the Lord rebuke him.

P. And he saith, ' The saints are not any time without sin, even when they were born of God.'

A. So not knowing the creature's coming into the liberty of the sons of God, nor the birth born of God.

P. And saith, ' Sin is in the saints for their humiliation.'

A. Contrary to the scripture, which saith, Christ is their humiliation, and bears their sins, and destroys it; which humility is not like man's, being brought down by sin, for sin exalts.

P. ' That the inward man, and the power of God in man, never brings the outward man so subject as to be without sin.'

A. This we say, God wrought salvation by Christ alone, without man's works; and who believe in him, are saved, and who do not, are condemned; and the power of God and Christ subdues sin in man, and destroys it, that man becomes the temple of God."

To experience "Perfection" in the context of the Second Coming of Christ that has happened and is happening sheds a powerful Light on this topic. William Rogers writes in 1680 in his Christian Quaker:

"Besides, if we do consider, where and after what manner the second appearance of Christ hath been, and yet is to be expected and waited for; those who know the Truth as preach’t, received, and believed amongst the People of the Lord called Quakers in the Beginning, do know, That his Second Appearance hath been, and yet is to be expected, and waited for in the hearts of the Sons and Daughters of Men, and the manner of his appearance hath been and is by his Spirit in us ...

I appeal to God's Witness in all Consciences, Whether the Outward Establishment of Outward Government,  under the notion of Christ’s Government, doth not seem to square more with the Principles of such, who look for his Second Coming in some Outward Bodily Appearance, than with the Principles of those, who conclude his Second coming to be by his Spiritual Appearance in the heart? and whether it be not inconsistent with Right Reason and Truth, to conclude, that Christ Jesus the Lord, will establish his Government otherwise than by his Spirit, and in the heart, where his Appearance hath been, and is to be expected and waited for?"

In the Quaker experience, the second coming "has happened" and is happening (a process) through patient and silent waiting upon the "immediate" (As Fox says) inward working of the Spirit in the conscience of men and woman. The perfection of  a conscious and a conscience anchored in and guided by the immediate experience of the inward Presence,  Law, Rule, Principle, of Christ is most certainly open to (relatively speaking) men and women right now and in this time and place. 

Comment by James C Schultz on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 1:52pm

Obviously I believe we can become perfect.  James 1:4 says we can.  I guess we just have to figure out what the word perfect means.  For me it means that in my life light has overcome darkness.  If I equate light to love, which I do, I can than equate darkness to hate or evil - take your pick.  Before I experienced God in Jesus by virtue of the Holy Spirit through the words of the Bible, I was a normal "good" person who would never kill anyone but wouldn't mind if certain annoying people died.  As a child I even took pleasure in a ballplayer's misfortune when it was good for my team or a favorite player.  In my profession I even contemplated how the misfortunes of people were good for business.  There was definitely a lot of darkness in me and not enough light.

Once I had an actual experience with the living God, I started examining my life and opening windows to let light into my life.  I made a conscious decision to stop doing things (asking God for the grace to actually accomplish the task in question) that I thought would hinder that light from entering my life.  I don't mean drugs or the like but everyday things like political involvement or the way I made my livelihood which required taking sides and adopting a particular perspective or finding myself in situations engulfed in hate.  When confronted with personal betrayal I struggled for grace to get past it and not let it shut out the light.  There is probably still some darkness in my life but as I near the finish line of this time in this body it is easier and easier for the light to overcome the darkness when it is exposed   Notice I make no claim that it is I that is overcoming the darkness in my life, its the light that flows out of my relationship with Jesus that overcomes it.  As I have patiently, most of the time, allowed the Holy Spirit to direct my path, I feel assured that I am coming closer to that point where there will be no darkness found in me.  Has it been instantaneous?  No, though I thought it was the first few days  of my walk when I was reveling in the knowledge that God so loved me that He  sent His only begotten son to die just for me.  As I learned that Jesus died just for you and him and her and the politicians, etc., I realized how little I knew while still understanding how special I was to Him.  Am I perfect?  I don't think so.  Am I being filled with His light?  Thank God Yes!

DISCLAIMER!!! I will probably do something nasty in the near future as God humbles me for writing the above.  However, the book of Revelations says that we shall overcome the enemy by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony so there it is in all its probable hypocrisy.

Comment by Keith Saylor on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 2:12pm

Concerning Perfection Robert Barclay writes in "A Confession of Faith which Contains a True Account of the Principles and Doctrines of the People called Quakers" written in 1673.

"Concerning Perfection

Sin shall not have dominion over such as are not under the law, but under grace.1 For there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit; for the law of the spirit of life maketh free from the law of sin and death.3 For such are become dead unto sin, and alive unto righteousness; and being made free from sin, are become servants of righteousness.3 Therefore ought we to be perfect, as our heavenly Father is per fect.4 For the yoke of Christ is easy, and his burthen it light.* And his commandments are not grievous.6 And whosoever will enter into life must keep the com mandments.7 Hereby do we know that we know God, if we keep his commandments.8 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.9 Whosoever ahideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, neither known him.10 Let no man deceive us; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteotfs; he that committeth sin is of the devil; whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.11 For not every one that saith Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father, which is in heaven.13 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping the commandments of God.13"

1Rom. 6. 14. 2Ch. 8. 1, 2. Ch. 6. 2. 18. 'Mat 5. 48. 6Ch. 11. 30. 1 John 5. 3. 'Mat. 19. 17. • 1 John 2. 3. s Ver. 4. 1« Ch. 3. 6. " 1 John 3. 7, 8, 9. "Mat. 7. 21. "ICor. 7. 19.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 4:05pm

"sin" is itself another iffy word.

Things we've done wrong that continue to haunt us? Then David had more than his share.

Maybe, just perhaps, the human tendency to push on despite that barely-discernable little voice screaming for our attention, warning that if we don't stop, we will surely have cause for regret.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 12th mo. 4, 2015 at 5:49pm

Creation as judged by God in Genesis, to be "Good" might as well be adjudged "Perfect" in the sense Doug was getting at i.e. "Complete" insofar as created (extant), though also still becoming.  Being's triumph over non-being is perfectly satisfying, all history aside. 

However eternal perfection in contrast to non-being is not relative to "imperfection" or "bad" -- a source of confusion as we enter the world of humans and their vanities i.e. their weariness / dreariness and mortal / terminal concerns (Ecclesiastes 1).  Dissatisfaction with the human dimension is a manifestation of Becoming and built in to Adam's design (how perfect).

Comment by James C Schultz on 12th mo. 5, 2015 at 10:04pm

I don't necessarily believe that the Adam who left the Garden was the original design so much as a Plan B design in that the Adam who left the Garden of Eden, literal or metaphorical, was not the same as the Adam God created.  In all probability the first lived by Faith while the second lived by his physical senses.  Perfection could just be going back to living by faith as without Faith it is impossible to please God.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 5, 2015 at 11:15pm

You make it sound like God was finished with Adam once He took him down off the workbench, as if all God had in mind had been that first perfect product...  I think it makes more sense to think in terms of a larger art form, where Adam's whole life is the work of art. Which fits, together with all those other lives, into something really big!

Comment by James C Schultz on 12th mo. 6, 2015 at 9:04pm

I prefer to think of it as Plan A and Plan B.  Maybe even Plan C (after the flood) and who knows how many more plans there are.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 6, 2015 at 9:27pm

One big flexible plan, as in "I'll stir this until it boils, then see if a little more garlic would be good in it?" [Anne & I are actually making soup today, so this seems like a natural metaphor.

But most art forms, at least the ones we humans pursue, seem to be more 'trial & response' than 'final product' oriented. There'll be an idea of what it's supposed to look like, but then the 'wrestling with refractory concrete materials' is part of the activity.... ]

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