Comment by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 5:51pm

I think the problem is not with "calling names" but with attributing evil motives to opponents.

This naturally leads to the use of pejorative naming, but that's a side effect of the underlying blind spot.

We do not need to always agree; we do need to distinguish what opponents mean by disagreeing from what we think anyone daring to disagree must mean. For that, one needs ask, and listen with a noncombatant ear.

Comment by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 6:19pm

Here I am posting again. 

Forrest, thank you for clarifying the point.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 7:39pm

Is "cowardice" an evil motive?  I'd not say so.  We use "pejorative naming" to encourage those of faltering spirit e.g. "c'mon, don't be a wimp, jump!" (might be a leap of faith).  I'd say my use of pejorative naming is aimed at saving Friends from future regret.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 8:37pm

"Death to all those who would whimper and cry!" he says, "The Sun's not yellow; it's chicken!"

Or perhaps you're looking out from inside a different model of the universe? This is not about trying to justify or invalidate your disapproval of people seeing this situation differently than you; but it is diagnostic. Until you come to understand why, in fact, some people do see matters differently -- without resort to ascribing unworthy motives -- It's merely honest of you to insult them.

It's interesting, that this nonconversation served to prepare me for an event at the Meeting I've started attending recently -- where the nominating committee, unable to find candidates willing to accept being put up for their Peace and Goodstuff committee, appointed a committee of former clerks and members of their P&G committee to consider whether or not to lay said P&G committee down. So after Meeting, before I could catch a ride home I needed to sit in on their initial meeting-w-interested members.

Reasons for wanting to keep or scrap or reframe the old official committee were too varied to list here; probably half the people present were busy in at least one peace-promoting activity or another. Several were nostalgic for how such committees had inspired them in the past -- without finding that particular structure all that useful for what they were personally doing, or wanting to person such a structure themselves. Several of us, me among them, spoke to the need to get our spiritual feet better balanced and grounded before we start planning final assaults on the evils we're all confronted with.

Comment by Stephanie Stuckwisch on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 9:22pm

Kirby, pejorative naming is NOT encouraging. It is shaming, it is silencing, it is bullying. It is an act of intellectual cowardice by someone who is afraid to risk listening w/ an open mind and heart. It is the verbal equivalent of striking a child because the adult lacks the imagination and will to find another way. It is a repudiation of Quakerism’s long held belief that no one person has a monopoly on the truth.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 9:31pm

I agree that old job descriptions grow stale.  Our 3-ring binder of Job Descriptions (far more detailed that Faith & Practice) never mentions listservs, as it's all hand-me-down text from before the Internet (we've been lazy). 

Adding a listserv can make a big difference.  Friends get to know each other better, in writing.  Just having snacks and/or worship together is insufficient.  The whole point of Quakerism is committee work, or you're missing out big time.

Our Climate Change Study Group (separate from P&SC) has a listserv by now.  I think updating the Committee job description is a viable discussion -- I mentioned my interest in "building use" as a chief concern our revamped PSCC committee (but not every meeting house serves an event center function).

Our other unprogrammed Monthly Meeting in Portland has no PSCC, having agreed to lay theirs down.  I don't heckle or hassle them, beyond my standard insults.  We still get along.

That meeting rents space from others and can always join Multnomah when it comes to events, e.g. the recent August 6 Disarm Day ceremonies with the Japanese American community (my mom a speaker). 

At Multnomah we now have two large peace dove puppets, so any time there's an outdoor march, we have to figure out if we want to deploy the puppets.  That's a good problem to have.  We've come a long way in a year.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kirbyurner/albums/72157656909535895  (Disarm Day 2015)

Dove Puppets good for outreach to other groups:  https://flic.kr/p/pfzBpZ

Comment by William F Rushby on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 10:00pm

Kirby Urner wrote: " The whole point of Quakerism is committee work, or you're missing out big time."

This is news to me, and it isn't the Good News!  If what you say is true, Friends will continue to lose members big time! 

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 10:11pm

Greetings William --

In my experience it's a standard thing to say around Liberal Friends (that "the whole point of Quakerism is committee work") because yes, everything depends on committees:  Finance, Property, Nominating... Oversight.  Minus committee work, we dissolve as an institution.  The bills don't get paid, the lights go out, the building gets bulldozed for condos.

Perhaps you're from another tradition wherein hireling priests (pastors) do all that work?  For us, it's all unpaid role playing (with a couple exceptions -- e.g. we pay for child care sometimes), and really useful in the real world, where we do similar work, perhaps in companies. 

Quakerism is like one of those outdoor play parks for kids, kinda, with a jungle gym and everything!  You get to better you social skills, learn to work with others.  All without voting or Robert's Rules.  Not a union, not a board room.  An institution unique unto itself.

Where else in US society do adults from disparate walks of life come together and wrestle with issues of social justice, as equals, perhaps undertaking coordinated action as a result of study?}

Political campaigns are *not* the only way to make democracy a reality.  A Quaker meeting provides the public with a precious opportunity, very much needed in this day and age, for which brave Quakers are to be heartily congratulated!  I don't think we're in such sorry shape, by and large, that we need to suspend vital internal operations to regroup on some theological plane -- that's more Episcopalian I think.

William:

This is news to me, and it isn't the Good News!  If what you say is true, Friends will continue to lose members big time!

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 10:17pm

Stephanie, sounds to me like you're saying I'm a bully, shamer, silencer.. not to mention the moral equivalent of a child abuser.  Good job name calling.  You're one of us apparently!  Or is it by dint of grammar, i.e. by just "naming the act, never the namer" that you cleverly avoid being offensive and insulting? Is that what we call "plain speech" these days?  Not buying.  Seriously, I don't agree with your style of labeling.  But we already knew we're in a state of disagreement.

Comment by Kirby Urner on 9th mo. 20, 2015 at 10:23pm

... and remember Stephanie, "steeple house" and "hireling priest" were pejorative names, used by George Fox and other early Quakers in a deliberately offensive manner.  Not doffing the hat:  so out of bounds.  I'm always surprised when Quakers in the 21st Century pretend that Quakerism makes no use of invective.  On the contrary, when you've surrendered the sword it's about all you have left sometimes.

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