Comment by Forrest Curo on 5th mo. 24, 2009 at 10:02pm

Hey, I think you're trying to give hope and encouragement to violent invaders of other nations, and others set on violence! Namely those whom Mose Allison characterised by his song about "Everybody's talking about Peace on Earth, just as soon as we win this war!"

Many of those are Americans, you know. Not only are they the most physically accessible of the promoters of violence, they are the best armed, and quite arguably the most dangerous.

In times such as our ongoing wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, we have the duty to point out that we have neither need nor legitimate business in occupying either of these countries, and are daily contributing to unnecessary deaths via violence and poverty, by our very presence there.

Comment by marv ostberg on 5th mo. 25, 2009 at 3:52pm

never to humble or bear any blame is what i hear you say of your approach. reminds me of the of the monkey who never heard or saw evil saw long as it did not stare him in the face, such as a war. if you were to do your research you would find that the only way we get more violence than in war is in situations of "peace" where apathy or calculated blindness occurs. could name several situations. but cambodia, ruwanda and the sudan are somewhat recent examples. you apparently had no problem with the killings by saddam or the talaban before we came. even worse were the millions killed by the soviets and the maoist (the latter case is still going on). no war comes close to equally those. of course hitler - and the peace movement was willing to turn a blind and apathetic eye to that as well. but there is no doubt that beyond the deaths you (in the collective sense of passivists) are responsible for - yes you are. during times of war it is probably fair to give you credit for 25% of the deaths as a result of extending it. but just focus on your non-war apathy if you like. the deaths caused by that are worse.
peace, with justice,
marv

Comment by Forrest Curo on 5th mo. 25, 2009 at 10:54pm

To do evil that good may come of it... is to make a fundamental mistake, as if we could somehow calculate the results of our actions beyond some immediate harm people imagine to be necessary.

The true situation of the United States... is like that of a madman attempting to defend himself by holding his neighbors at gunpoint, all the time emptying their wallets and refrigerators in return for his services as their "peacekeeper."

I have little power to stop my own country's evil deeds, but it is more than any control I might have over those various foreigners whose misdeeds you imagine I might stop. To try to reform foreign governments by military force--is far too much like attempting brain surgery with an ax.

What happens far more often than any honest attempt to stop evil, is that leaders claim to be stopping evil, but use the public's idealistic hopes and illusions to enlist them in organized murder.

I don't know what you imagine about the history of the world or the place of the United States in it, nor is this the place to debate that. As a truly humble person, you will of course seek out evidence that the view of the world you have been trying to impose here could be utterly mistaken, and examine it with an honest wish to know the truth. I wish you success in that endeavor!

Meanwhile, I will try to avoid making assumptions about you and what you mean, and ask that you please do the same for me.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 5th mo. 26, 2009 at 10:57am

I should have been more grateful for this "Let's fight about peace!" invitation.

Instead, it was more like "Oh darn! I've gotta climb down into that sty & tongue-wrestle for truth one more time. So many fools, so little time!" (Well, I said we shouldn't be making assumptions about each other, but it is something our minds do fairly automatically.)

You must have known that there are other descriptions of the world and its workings than the standard US model. For some reason, you have not given these the same credence you assume for our USian cover stories. But if I take it on myself to do a whole lot of 'ohyeah? What about your mother?' over this, we might both have fun but end up no nearer to truth.

Everyone who won the Civil War is dead, and slavery is still with us. (Consider how many black Americans have been forced into self-employment in the drug black-market, & gone from there into prisons, where with a little luck, they may have the chance to earn a pitance doing work they might better have been hired for on the outside!) Quakers took a very long time giving up their own slaves. We didn't fight (hardly much) over it, and at the end of the process needed some delicate, loving meetings with recalcitrant slave-owners, but we did it... and then needed, many times, to move away from slave-owning neighbors into desolate places where we had to "get religion from the Methodists"... Long-term consequences are never clear. If we were playing a game of go, and you were reasonably proficient, we might see a long series of moves ahead in which each person's best move clearly followed from what had gone before. But life has a whole lot more possibilities than (19X19)!

So, how to evaluate my view of things vs yours? Demonstrating "Who has the sharper tongue?" won't settle that.

I recommend a bit more time in Meeting, asking God to make matters clear to us. Since that's also what I recommend for myself, I hope that's no problem!

Comment by marv ostberg on 6th mo. 22, 2009 at 11:21pm

forrest, you are probably an interesting fellow, but you seem determined to mostly place blame for all earthly problems on our government and most especially blame people you disagree with. you are not the only person in the "peace" category where i have seen that. it is fairly common there to be self-righteous and holier than thou ist. so spending more time in a meeting hall i doubt would change that. and i do not wish to be one with "the sharper tongue". but in the process of solving an issue it surely is not enough to just attack the other guy's solution. surely you should have a full blown solution of your own to some of these problems. take north korea as a troubling case in point. what would you do both to stop the abuse of their own people and to do so without violence on our part? what would you do? and nothing is not a very good answer. and constantly to blame "structural" problems gets a little simplistic after a while. for me one solution would be to teach more people how to cope well and successfully in a complex world. that is the better solution than treating the same people like "victims" - thus really insulting and disabling them. give me some solutions other than just word games and blame games please.

Comment by marv ostberg on 7th mo. 8, 2009 at 12:35am

forrest where are you??? truly, instead of hearing how badly the rest of the world is handling problems, let us hear some kind of solution from you. life is not a chess game or any kind of game. life is a daily thing of getting things done in the face of sometimes monumental problems. so let me hear how you would solve any of those problems personally. take the sudan if you do not like my other examples. take violent crime in philly or detroit. and you serious commit an evil act if you surmise that african americans are doomed to end up dealing drugs or in jail or both. that kind of comment borders on racism.. in this country if you are willing to do some delayed gratification you can succeed far above that level - no matter who you are. so instead of the victimization and historical bitterness and futility you seem to be peddling, how about promoting success through dedication to a goal. if it works to create a basketball or football pro it can work as well to create a doctor, banker, scientist. i will not suppose what you are thinking, but you certainly seem to push the idea that: once a victim always a victim. try a more positive approach please. we will listen.

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