Comment by Roger Dreisbach-Williams on 11th mo. 27, 2011 at 7:38pm

Thanks, Patricia, for your beacon of Truth.  What doesn't get said much anymore is that the Quaker understanding of Christ predates (and sidesteps) the confessions of faith that have come to define the faith in the wider community.  After spending time in the Gospels of Mark and John, and with the writings of early Friends, the resurrection is real, the virgin birth not, the Son of God/Man has deep roots in the Scriptures used by the followers of Jesus, but more is the reality of what it was/is like to meet Jesus - and that has become the basis of my vocal ministry.  If some are uncomfortable that's their problem, not mine.  Nobody has tried to physically harm me and even if they do, it is less than other Christians have to endure with joy and forgiveness.

Comment by Aaron J Levitt on 11th mo. 27, 2011 at 9:14pm

I care quite a bit about the feelings of the people with whom I worship, and I hope they feel the same way about me. So far, at least, that seems to be the case.

Comment by William F Rushby on 12th mo. 4, 2011 at 3:22pm

Richard: I see lots of stereotyping, anger and condemnation in your comments.  I could write a similar "discourse", substituting "liberals" for "the Religious Right" and naming other "sins" in place of those you assign to "the Religious Right".

I am trying to make a couple of points. (1)Virtue and vice are spread across the theological spectrum.  No group has a monopoly on either; (2)Reality is more complex and nuanced than you appear to recognize. " Conservative Christianity" is not a homogeneous entity, and includes a variety of beliefs,  attitudes and behaviors.

It is  easy to commit the very sins one condemns in others!  By the way, I don't have any qualms about calling myself a Christian, but I squirm a bit about calling myself a Quaker!

Comment by Patricia Barber on 12th mo. 4, 2011 at 5:05pm

I am loving this discussion partly because it reflects so much of the many "stations of the Cross" that I have visited in my search for Jesus in liberal Quakerism and because all of your comments enrich my own understanding. I hope you folks will continue to follow my quest which I am developing over several posts. At the risk of being accused of drumming up a following, I would encourage you to read my second post on this subject which is somewhere here on Quaker Quaker - or you can go directly to my blog site: www.headuponastone.blogpost.com. I will be adding Part 3 this evening, I think (if I can get my thoughts together) and would welcome your input.

Comment by Forrest Curo on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 12:41am

Jesus came to a time and place where nobody imagined any division between "religion" and "politics".

Two opposite influences struggled within the religious traditions  he inherited: a set of strains that emphasized love, mercy, the needs of the poor and afflicted-- versus strains of harsh literalism, formal observances, centralized power, the interests of rulers and the prosperous families they came from.

He stood for the humane elements, without compromise, and died without gaining any political "influence" whatsoever.

What does any of this have to do with people who call themselves "Liberal" or "Conservative"? Jesus would presumably sympathize with those who favor kinder treatment of human beings-- but would he expect to secure such treatment by calculated legislative tinkering, in the absence of any true recognition of God's power and wisdom, without any change of heart by those who rule us or we who accept their pretensions?

Comment by William F Rushby on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 8:32am

Richard Wigton wrote: "I would challenge you to give me a example of those on the religious left demonizing a minority group---whether it be ideological or religious.

Some (many?) Quaker liberals seem inclined to demonize religious conservatives, particularly among Friends.  I see evidence of this tendency in your own remarks. Picking out various offensive views or caricatures of conservative Christians and treating these as a description of this category as a whole is a case in point of demonizing a minority one disagrees with!

Comment by William F Rushby on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 8:45am

I have seen Christian Friends made to feel quite unwelcome in liberal meetings, even made fun of.  As a case in point, two elderly Conservative Friends went on a religious visit to the Conservative meeting in a western state.  They mistakenly landed at the liberal meeting down the street.

The ministering Friend knelt and offered prayer in his typically loud and fervent manner (he was what one might call an "earth quaker!").  A member of the liberal meeting arose and made fun of him.  I certainly hope that this was atypical, but I know that Christian Friends often feel that they are not welcome in liberal meetings.

Comment by Aaron J Levitt on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 9:42am

Dear Richard,

There are indeed tens of millions of conservative Christians in the U.S., but they are still a minority of our 300+ million citizens. That they are a major political force in the country, and they certainly are, doesn't change that fact. Furthermore, conservative Christians are often a tiny minority in liberal communities where negative stereotypes about them are most common, and seemingly the least restrained. Experiencing ostracism and prejudice in a small community is always painful, no matter whether there is some larger context in which the target is him/herself a member of a dominant group.

It's also worth bearing in mind that GOP debate audiences are a self-selecting subgroup of American conservatives, and American conservatives are by no means all conservative Christians. The behavior of some people at the debates, is only proof regarding a very small dish of pudding.

As for conservative Christians who find ways to avoid seeing unpleasant truths about their leaders (and perhaps themselves), I agree that it is a potentially lethal weakness. Regrettably, it's also very common, and rears its ugly head among every group I've encountered, not just conservative Christians.

Regards,

Aaron

Comment by Aaron J Levitt on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 9:47am

William,

 

I was a bit taken aback to see that you don't have any qualms about calling yourself a Christian, but squirm a bit about calling yourself a Quaker. What is it that Quakers are, or have done, that makes them more "squirmworthy", so to speak, than Christians?

 

Regards,

Aaron

Comment by Patricia Barber on 12th mo. 5, 2011 at 10:02am

Friend William, I believe that if the Christian Friend had offered his prayer in my liberal meeting, he would not have been made fun of. Friends might have been a little startled but he would have been welcomed nevertheless. I don't think my meeting would have reacted any differently from the vast majority of liberal meetings. I have seen my meeting "elder" a person with whom most of us agreed politically for behaving in what we thought of as an unloving way towards another Friend who was very much in the minority on the issue at hand. It is hard, however, for most liberal Friends to understand how some Conservative and Evangelical Friends can reject people who are, we believe, as God made them.

And, Friend Richard, I once heard a liberal Friend say rather ruefully, "There are some Quakers who believe there is more of that of God in a prisoner on death row, then in a Republican." We liberal Friends may not demonize in perhaps the strident way that some on the political and religious Right might, but we do demonize. Usually we do it by asserting intellectual superiority rather than moral superiority. We also fail to work very hard at understanding their point of view, dismissing them as "ignorant" or "brain-washed."  I believe we should all take a leaf from John Woolman's book and work from that place where we feel "a motion of love," rather than a spirit of condemnation. And that applies to all of us - right, left and center.

Finally, I believe we have to be very careful about lumping Friends of different varieties into particular political camps. I have met Conservative Friends who are quite liberal politically and in my meeting we have liberal Friends who are conservative politically. I know this is true, too, of Evangelical Friends who are across the spectrum politically. We are all human, struggling to make sense of our world. Surely it is better that we struggle together, dealing each other's differences tenderly, than struggle apart, boxed in by our own prejudices?

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