Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 8:05am

Hi Matteo,

I believe that Cathy's central concern is not with homosexuality but with the collapse of marriage and it's impact on children, something that you experience first-hand in your work. You see the cause  in strictly economic terms.  I agree  there is an economic component to it, but I also agree with Charles Murray's take, discussed widely here in a thread about his book Coming Apart(the collapse of marriage among the white working class) that there is a cultural/spiritual dimension as well- this is Cathy’s position and that of numerous social conservatives.

We can agree that gays have NOT destroyed marriage.  I believe an increasingly consumerist society that exalts individual liberty and autonomy free from communal traditions of restraint is somewhere at the core of the problem… along with economics. I believe this philosophy of life tempts us to give divinity to the “earthquake, wind, and fire” of selfish human desire(greed, lust and pride) and drowns out the “still small voice of calm.”

I have always been in favor of gay rights and communal affirmation of same gender relationships(Celebrations of Committee, Rites of Brotherhood or Sisterhood, what have you). In an age of radical individuality and loneliness, we should do everything we can to foster bonds of fidelity to the “other. “ But marriage to me is NOT just a committed relationship of two people, it’s a very particular relationship that mediates the male/ female divide and unites the two into one flesh from which comes at least potentially… family.  Removing the definition entirely from biology does seem to weaken marriage. It certainly opens marriage to polygamy and polyandry as well and pretty much any definition that individuals choose to make irrespective of the “fruit” or consequences.

Here’s a piece in the NY Times today extolling the importance of embracing a “clash of cultures” that challenges our human tendency to live unthinkingly within the norms of our “tribe.”

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/in-praise-of-the-cl...

 

 I think this is what Paul meant when he said, “… I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.” I wish humans could learn to wrestle together in love after truth, rather than lobbing bombs of tribal accusation across the culture divide but I guess this is where the cross comes in.

 

Blessings,
Herb  

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Adria Gulizia on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 8:31am

Hi, Howard! Thanks for clarifying! I agree that Dan Cathy should be forced to deal with the consequences of his statement, but I doubt that they will be what you think. Chik-fil-A is biggest in the South, where people were already aware that it was operated according to biblical principles (as interpreted by the Cathys). That is why it is the only fast food restaurant that is always  closed on Sunday. I would not be surprised if Chik-fil-A saw a spike in business as people patronize the shop to show solidarity or just to see what all the fuss is about. 

As to the testimonies, they were invented by Howard Brinton. They are descriptions of some Friends hold dear, but they aren't, as I view them, prescriptive codifications of what Friends should do. What Friends should do is obey the promptings of the indwelling Christ, subject to the discipline of others committed to doing the same. Sometimes this means testifying to the fact that all are created in the image of God; sometimes it means preaching woe to those who transgress the laws of God. Sometimes it means celebrating community; sometimes it means reading someone out of meeting. I think that SPICE can't capture the nuance and richness of Friends' faith, the way Cliffs Notes can't capture the richness and beauty of a work of literature. The testimonies are useful, not as a "rule or form to walk by," but as a short description of some of the distinctive characteristics of Friends. As you have doubtless noticed, in their simplest form, they they leave out a lot - refusal to take oaths, refusal to celebrate holidays (why there are Christmas trees in Friends meetings continues to mystify me. And Easter egg hunts? Heaven help us), and the possibility of perfection in this life.

Hope that helps clarify!

Howard Brod said:

Oh my, I sound worse than my intent. I did not mean the statement as a condemnation of the man. All I'm saying is that he is taking an unpopular moral stand to many, in a public manner. So, he's a "big boy", and should expect a boycott reacton.

I indeed attempted to labor with him via the only means at my disposal- email. Consequences are not bad. They help people rethink their actions. I've had many in my lifetime that have reshaped me. I thank God for them. If they don't happen, things will never change. As John Woolman exemplified, we need both consequences and laboring to help change our hearts.

I am mystified how you can separate the testimonies from spirituality. They are the active result of our spirituality.

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Permalink Reply by Matteo Masiello on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 9:26am

Hi Herb thank you for your response. I think we all contain male and female aspects to our identities, so for a same sex couple these aspects are as complimentary to one another. I've heard the arguement that the necessity to reproduce is essential to marriage which disqualifies same sex couples outside of "artificial" methods. The arguments fails as heterosexual couples are allowed to marry without having to reproduce, or partake in artificial methods to reproduce. The irony I see in this is that the conservative Christians who make the arguement essentially take a social Darwinist viewpoint antithetical to their ow religious beliefs. They sat LBGTs are mentally I'll, morally deficient, and criminial in their behavior. Civil unions do not offer all the civil rights and benefits as does the definition of marriage. So the benefits of civil unions should equal marriage which would make it marriage. Spiritually these same sex people are already blessed by God. So it's the church that needs to get with the program.

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Permalink Reply by Howard Brod on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 4:23pm

Thanks for the explanation Adria. I would agree that the testimonies are just a part of the result of our spirituality. The other part are the fruits of the Spirit and a whole host of other manifestations, as you touched upon.

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Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 7:39pm

Hi Matteo,

It's no surprise that we see things differently- that's the nature of fallibale human  testimony and witness and the reason that we need to wrestle patiently within the church to discern how the body will procede. This is what the early church did in Acts 15 in doing a major revision of the Mosaic Code!

I accept that you are trying to do what's best and trust that you see me attempting to be faithful as well. What I'm hoping to do is turn down the polarizing judgment(seeing the speck in neighbor's eye and missing the plank in our own) that appeals destructively to our tribal gene- "Cathy is anti gay and a hate monger." It does often lead to polarization and then violence.

Let's make our witness and leave the judgment to God.

 

blessings,

Herb  

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Permalink Reply by Matteo Masiello on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 8:00pm

Just as those who think that homosexuals being an abomination who should be killed. If some consevatives wont take that fundamentalist view, should their language veil theirvtrue ferlings. We have constructed this temple called Christianity not by the blood of the lamb but by blood of those who God seems to want us to protect - namely the widowed, the orphan, the alien, the meek and the humble and I wonder where tribalism ends and denominationalism and sects and the "true church" begin. It bewilders me sometimes how fractured the body of Christ is and it bewilders me more as God is not very concerned.

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Permalink Reply by Herb Lape on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 8:03pm

Amen!

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Permalink Reply by Matteo Masiello on 9th mo. 3, 2012 at 8:10pm

Which I admit lead me to questioning whether anyone is right and God does not exist.

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Permalink Reply by Sophia Shapira on 9th mo. 20, 2012 at 12:33pm

As a woman who was born transsexual, and who therefore knows that it's like to really be forced into the margins of society by prevalence of religious fundamentalism -- I probably find Dan Cathy's remarks a bit more threatening than some others here do.

I'm not saying that Dan Cathy's freedom of speech should be taken away, no matter how much I disagree with it -- because I know what doing that would open the door to -- I know that doing so would tread upon a slippery slope. It would mean that someone would have to be given the power to arbitrate what speech is "acceptable" and what speech is "unacceptable" -- and the power I give such a person today to prevent Dan Cathy from making his anti-LGBT remarks can tomorrow be turned against me, preventing me from renouncing them as a blatant distortion of scripture.

If a government agency is given the power to stop Dan Cathy's remarks today --- how do I know that tomorrow the same government agency won't stop *me* from quoting the Bible where Jesus reprimands the Pharisees for placing burdens on the people that they themselves don't face --- and pointing out how they give gays and lesbans the burden of being unable to marry the gender they can actually be attracted to while they as straight people don't have that burden -- or give transfolk the burden of having to live in a gender-role that is psychologically destructive to them when they themselves (as cis-gendered people) live comfortably in a gender-role that fits them? Frankly, if Dan Cathy is prevented from saying what he has to say -- I might tomorrow be prevented from saying this response of mine.

I agree with Adria that I have much to be nervous of if Dan Cathy's freedom of speech is taken away. But to make the leap and say that Dan Cathy's speech itself shouldn't be a cause for me to be nervous? I wouldn't go that far. Because frankly, his speech *does* make me nervous.

Dan Cathy's speech makes me nervous because it makes it invokes every time that I was just starting to make friends --- only to have that derailed because venue-of-choice of the social circle I was starting to make headways into decided not to give me safe restroom access.

It calls to mind every time that I was prevented from forming normal female-to-female friendships on the basis of religious reasons.

It recalls how I was unable to even go to school during the five years of my transition -- because the school administration wouldn't allow me safe restroom access.

Also --- I'm sure there are gay and lesbians out there who read Dan Cathy's remarks, and remember their life-partners dying in the hospital, and being unable to spend their last minutes together because of the attitudes that he declares the intent to perpetuate.

So sorry - but Dan Cathy's comments *do* make me nervous. Very nervous.  And they are nothing short of an all-out assault on the brothers and sisters of Jesus based on a blatant distortion of the Bible.

However --- I don't trust the government to the the arbitrator of this fact that I just mentioned. And that is the reason - the *only* reason - why restricting Dan Cathy's freedom of speech makes me nervous too.

I do not find his view to be at all respectable - not in the least bit. I just don't want some government Department of Censorship to be the one to determine this.

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Permalink Reply by Matteo Masiello on 9th mo. 20, 2012 at 12:53pm

Sophia I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. No one wants a Department of Censorship. No one wants a tyranny of the majority either. I don't think those who reacted to Cathy's statement were implying that he couldn't say what he said. I'm am happy to see that public sentiment will change in favor of the LGBT community and those who oppose it will have to accept it. It won't stop them from being homophobic just as civil rights legislation and public sentiment has not made people less racist, but it tells them that there will be consequences to their actions and perhaps the words behind those actions in some cases. It may not be censor airship but it might mean you might lose business or that your opinion will be less valued in the conversation. I think that too many people (mostly conservatives) have deluded themselves into thinking that they have a right to be hateful toward people because God says it's okay. They may have a Biblically valid argument but they need to work on their proper exegesis of that biblical source when it comes to acting in the face of the supposed sin they see in others. Simply saying that the Bible says so and so isn't enough.

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Permalink Reply by Howard Brod on 9th mo. 20, 2012 at 1:41pm

I'm not sure anyone here, including me, thinks the government should "punish"
Mr. Cathy for his remarks. All I'm saying is that a decent politician, as any decent American, has a right to exercise his/her freedom of speech by condemning the hypocrisy of Mr. Cathy who welcomes gay patrons in order to make money off of them so he is able to financially support organizations that would persecute them. And if you don't think forbidding a gay couple from marrying is persecution, you should live in their shoes before you decide that.

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